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Author Topic: Tactical Doctrine & Fixed Formations  (Read 3881 times)
AJ at the Bank
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« on: 23 June 2019, 11:27:14 AM »

A rule confirmation query please -

The wording in the Tactical Doctrine table on p74 is confusing us - can you help please?

(1)
The table repeatedly refers to the use of the optional rule "Fixed Formations" throughout.
This optional rule states that, when applied, units can only be issued orders by their own formation Command Unit.

This then seems at odds with rules and penalties in the table for HQs issuing orders to units in another formation when using the Fixed Formations rule.

Is it that the table should say "When not using Fixed Formations.." ..rather than "When using Fixed Formations" for Rigid, Normal & Flexible doctrines....or have miss-understood please?

(2)
The BKCII Errata confirmed that this table should refer to 'HQs and the CO...' when referring to to issuing orders to units in other formations...and that a CO could issue an order to another formation unit(s) subject to a -1 penalty.
Is this still in effect, just missing from the table please?

Many thanks
Adam
« Last Edit: 23 June 2019, 11:32:02 AM by AJ at the Bank » Logged

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ianrs54
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« Reply #1 on: 23 June 2019, 12:43:42 PM »

Read it as its own Command unit, or a superior in line of command. So if not ordered by a Btn Co it can be ordered by the rgt/Brigade HQ of its own Rgt, and if that fails a Div HQ can give it a go.

Ian S
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AJ at the Bank
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« Reply #2 on: 23 June 2019, 07:00:11 PM »

Sorry Ian - I don't understand your point - apologies if being thick!

Doctrine table gives rules and adjustments for when Command can order units in other formations - under Fixed Formations, units may only be issued orders by their own formation Command unit (singular).


What are we not understanding here?


Thanks
Adam
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ianrs54
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« Reply #3 on: 24 June 2019, 10:20:37 AM »

Just follow the line of command - so (its modern but will work)  WE have a Soviet Tank Division 5th Guards - and II Btn 1st Rgt wants to advance. The Btn CO has a CV 7 boosted to 8 by the recce element closest. The most advanced tank is 25 cm away from BHQ, and they are not moving on a road. So assuming it's the first order the HQ will need a 7 - base 7 + 1 for recce - 1 for distance. He rolls and scores an 8, a fail, and can issue no further orders. There is another BHQ close by, but it cant issue an order to this btn as it's not his command. The player then attempts to issue an order via the RHQ, with a CV of 8, and -2 for distance - 1 for the failed order, scoring a 6 - so successful.  However if 2nd Rgt HQ is closer the player cant use it as it is not in the line of command, and if 1st RHQ fails you would need to use the Divisional command - desperation.

One thing to remember is that if you are ordering mixed formations you can split your command rolls between smaller groups, so that say a US armoured Infantry Btn with an attached M5 company can issue an order or orders to the infantry, switch to his AT guns, and revert to his original CV, despite the orders he has issued to his riflemen. He would trhen revert to his original value to order the M5's, supposing none of the earlier attempts had failed.  BUT you cant revert to a group ordered earlier....


IanS
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fred.
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« Reply #4 on: 24 June 2019, 12:45:46 PM »

Ian - what you say makes sense. But I donít think itís defined in the rules.

The Fixed Formations special rule (online) only mentions tactical doctrines in relation to Guerrillas.  It states that units can only be ordered their HQ. The doctrine rules in the book  give lots of detail about issuing commands to units outside of the fixed formation.

The Fixed Formations rules also say that Recce isnít part of a FF,  but the Recce rules are very much written to suggest that they are.

Both seem easy fixes to the FF rules.

It does seem odd to have lots of references in the rules to FF,  but then to have them as an optional rule that isnít in the main book.

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ianrs54
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« Reply #5 on: 24 June 2019, 04:25:11 PM »

Lots of posts about Recce from Mark on here. Follow those. Bear in mind I play more CWC than BKC. So long as what I put is clear I'm happy, and hope it helped.

IanS
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« Reply #6 on: 24 June 2019, 04:37:58 PM »

In a Fixed Formation game you have a number of variables:

1) units are bought and organised so that they have a 'fixed' command to a single HQ (or are specifically assigned to the CO). Recce can be assigned to a fixed formation, in which case they will only influence Command units within that Formation. Likewise FAOs and FACs could also be assigned to be part of a fixed formation. This is usually to represent a historical OOB. They are nor 'ordered' by the HQ in the formation, but if there is a Recce in the formation can be influenced by that Recce.

2). If a Recce has been assigned to a fixed formation, it can only influence that HQ (or other officers in that formation). However if it is assigned to the CO it can influence the CO and no other Command units in the Battle Group (other than FAOs and FACs attached to the CO). So in a fixed formation game it is advisable to have your Recce as part of a fixed formation, otherwise they can only influence independent commanders - such as the CO, FAOs and FACs (assuming the later are also not in fixed formations).

3). In a fixed formation game, if an HQ fails to order a unit(s) in his fixed formation, the CO can attempt to order that unit, but at a penalty. The CO might also choose to order other units (that have not already been ordered) out of that HQ's fixed formation, but again does so at a penalty. However, no other HQ can order any units in any other formation other than their own.  

Again, its complexity is that it is applying 'real life' battlefield logic and command to the tabletop.

Personally, I prefer Fixed Formations as a way of playing the game, as it is much more realistic (IMHO).

Thanks
Mark
« Last Edit: 24 June 2019, 06:37:22 PM by Big Insect » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: 24 June 2019, 04:51:36 PM »

NB - think of Fixed Formations as lines of command - that might be helpful.

In a Fixed Formation game, I will usually have my Recce assigned to a specific formation.
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fred.
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« Reply #8 on: 24 June 2019, 07:23:43 PM »


3). In a fixed formation game, if an HQ fails to order a unit(s) in his fixed formation, the CO can attempt to order that unit, but at a penalty. The CO might also choose to order other units (that have not already been ordered) out of that HQ's fixed formation, but again does so at a penalty. However, no other HQ can order any units in any other formation other than their own.  


I get the idea and concept of Fixed Formations and we tend to play that way.
But on a close reading of the rules, there are a couple of inconsistencies. What is given above is what most of us seem to be playing,  but it is different from p74 tactical doctrines.
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Big Insect
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« Reply #9 on: 24 June 2019, 07:40:36 PM »

I'll double check Fred
Cheers
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AJ at the Bank
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« Reply #10 on: 24 June 2019, 08:41:37 PM »

Thanks Mark - much appreciated

Still none the wiser on answer to original questions.

Fixed Formation limits who can order units to only the Command element of that formation....but the table suggests when using the FF rule Ö.others can order. Which is right please?

Is the Errata from BKCII still in play?

Thanks again
Adam
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« Reply #11 on: 25 June 2019, 09:40:35 AM »

Sorry AJ - I am obviously not being clear.

In a Fixed Formation game, the only Commanders that can order a unit are:

1). the HQ of that formation

2). the CO of the battle group

Does that help?

Mark

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ianrs54
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« Reply #12 on: 25 June 2019, 09:57:26 AM »

Mark you missed one,  what happens when there are 3 layers ?
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AJ at the Bank
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« Reply #13 on: 25 June 2019, 10:56:03 AM »

Yes Mark - thank you.

I think then the answer to my first question, is that the notes in the table on p74 do Not apply when playing FF optional rule?


When not playing the FF rule.....does the Errata from v2 still apply please?


Thanks again Mark
A
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« Reply #14 on: 25 June 2019, 11:41:20 AM »

No Errata from BCKII applies to BKCIV AJ

I will double check Page 74 when I next have my rules in front of me and report back.

Are you planning to play Fixed Formation (soon)?

Mark

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