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Author Topic: Still Confused over Deploy Action and Deploy Special Ability.  (Read 1192 times)
T13A
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« on: 22 April 2019, 02:52:30 PM »

Hi

Under ‘ACTIONS’ (page 22) the rules say, “A unit may carry out one (my emphasis) action when issued an order and this action is carried out immediately”. And it goes onto to say, “Troops and transport are treated as a single unit whilst the troops are in the transport, but as separate units when the troops dismount”.

It then goes onto describe the three possible actions which are, Move, Deploy or Fire. Against the ‘Deploy’ action the rules say, “A unit may mount/dismount transport or limber/set-up towed guns”.

Which to me seems all very clear and unambiguous and my understanding from the above would mean that a limbered anti-tank gun or a half track with passengers in, would need three successful orders to, move (1st order), unlimber (or dismount), (2nd order) and then fire (3rd order) (and the now empty and separate transport could move if wished as part of the 3rd order).

Easy peasy!

On page 33 under the heading ‘PASSENGERS’ the rules state, “Troops in or on a Transport unit may dismount as a Deploy action. Remove the infantry unit from the transport and place it on the table within 5cm of the transport unit. The infantry unit may then carry out further actions independently of the transport unit, subject to orders being issued” (my emphasis). My understanding of the last sentence is that the deploy action is one order and then the infantry could undertake a new action subject to a second successful order being given.

Again very clear and completely in line with what is stated above.

However this is where I start to get confused as the next paragraph (still under PASSENGERS) goes onto say that, “Similarly, troops may board as a Deploy action and the transporting unit may then move as part of this same action” (again my emphasis).

Surely this is two separate actions (the ‘deploy’ being one and the ‘move’ being another) and at variance with what is written under actions on page twenty-two? (I’m also confused as to exactly what the word ‘Similarly’ is actually referring to).

At the bottom of page 34 is a “MOUNTING EXAMPLE”. The second paragraph says (as part of the example), “First you select a nearby HQ unit with a Command value of CV8 and form an order group consisting of the infantry unit, artillery unit and truck unit. You then declare your intended actions, so the infantry will Mount into the truck, the guns will be Mounted or hitched up, and the trucks will move” (again my emphasis). Again isn’t this at variance with ‘deploy’ and ‘move’ requiring two separate successful orders being issued?

The MOUNTING EXAMPLE continues with what seems to me to contradict what the rules say on page 22.

Further, on page 45 under ANTI-TANK GUNS, MORTARS and INFANTRY GUNS the rules state (for each weapon separately) that they, “must carry out a deploy action between moving and firing, and between firing then moving”. Again I take this to mean three separate actions (and orders), i.e. moving, deploy and firing.

No problem with that. But, (you were expecting a ‘but’ right?) how does that differ from units that have the ‘Deploy’ Special Ability as explained on page 76 where the rules say that a unit with this ‘Special Ability’, “Must take a deploy action after any move action, if it wishes to make a firing action”. And, “Must take a deploy action after any firing action, if it wishes to make a move action”.

Bearing in mind that as far as I can see (and I have not read through all the Army Lists line by line) Anti-Tank guns, Mortars and Infantry Guns do not have the ‘Deploy’ Special Ability. My problem is that I’m failing to see what the difference is between units such as Anti-Tank Guns, Mortars and Infantry Guns (and infantry mounted in vehicles) that do not have the ‘Deploy’ Special Ability and those units that do have the ‘Deploy’ Special Ability, regarding moving (or firing), then limbering/unlimbering (or mounting/dismounting) and then firing (or moving). Each would take three separate actions/orders (the confusion over Passengers above not withstanding) as far as I can understand.

I apologise for such a long post but I’m trying my best to understand a great set of rules. I would really appreciate some clarification regarding the rules as written (and I understand that some people, particularly those involved with playtesting, may have a very clear understanding of the way the rules are meant to work, but I would like to be clear on what I have in front of me).

Many thanks.

Cheers Paul

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Ithoriel
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« Reply #1 on: 22 April 2019, 05:19:01 PM »

We may have been doing it wrong all of these years but we've always played it that transport and passengers given an order could move the transport, then deploy the passengers (or the reverse).

The transport performed one action - move, the passengers performed one action - deploy, so only one order was needed.

We have played the Deploy rule as requiring two orders. One to move the transport and one to deploy the weapon (or vice versa).

Made sense to us ... but maybe we're doing it entirely wrongly!
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T13A
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Posts: 382



« Reply #2 on: 22 April 2019, 08:02:54 PM »

Hi Ithoriel

Thanks for the response. I’ve just checked my copy of BKC-II and it seems that the wording in BKC-IV under ‘Actions’ has been lifted directly from the earlier edition. Both say that a unit may carry out one action when issued an order and goes onto say that troops and transport are treated as a single unit when the troops are in the transport, but as separate units when the troops dismount. So, if I am reading the rules properly (and not making a complete twit of myself) it does indeed look as if you have been playing the rules wrongly. But of course I stand to be corrected!

However, as mentioned in my original post above the rules (BKC-IV) under the heading ‘Passengers’ (page 33) does contradict this where they say, “Similarly, troops may board as a Deploy action and the transporting unit may then move as part of this same action”. And carries on, “As long as it is within 5cm of the transport unit, remove the infantry unit from the table and place it ‘in’ the transport. The infantry will then move with the transport until they dismount”.

Interestingly (maybe!) the wording here does differ in BKC-II where it says, “Similarly, troops may board transport as a deploy action. Remove the infantry unit from the table as long as it is within 5cm of the transport unit. The infantry then move with the transport until they dismount”.

Nothing here, specifically, about deploying and moving as part of the same action. I suspect the last sentence – “The infantry then move with the transport until they dismount” is meant to refer to a further order/action and may be part of the confusion.

Anyway still hoping for some clarification.

Cheers Paul
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Steve J
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« Reply #3 on: 22 April 2019, 09:49:27 PM »

We've played it that at the end of a move order, the passengers may dismount within 5cm of the transport, this counting as part of the original order. The reverse is true. Hope this makes sense?
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Big Insect
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« Reply #4 on: 22 April 2019, 10:58:53 PM »

Interesting point - chaps - thank you - the long posts are very helpful.

My intention behind this was (to revert to the tried and tested BKCII method) that in most cases you'd need 2 orders to move and deploy towed or transported weapons or passengers.(ignore the special half-track Mechanised rule or Tank Descant)
Order 1: move (transport and passenger/tow)
Order 2: deploy (within 5cm of transport)
Order 3: fire or move etc.

The same was to apply to re-mounting or re-limbering - so here you'd need a "mount-up or limber" order and then a separate move order.

My original intention was that Self Propelled guns (& some portee guns) were going to be exempt from this - but in reality that didn't work in play-tests as they just started to operate like tanks. In addition I'd had the thought of making it harder for larger caliber towed guns to deploy - so guns over 150mm would need an additional 'prepare' action after deploy before they could fire. But again I ended up rejecting this for BKC as it made too cumbersome.

It looks like some of that thinking may have slipped through the final edit. This is one we can pick in the errata. T13A is correct (in the last post), that this is/was my intention.

I hope that helps?

Mark
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Steve J
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« Reply #5 on: 23 April 2019, 07:20:57 AM »

Thanks for the feedback Mark.
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BeeKiller
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« Reply #6 on: 04 August 2019, 10:33:47 AM »

So what's the final and correct way of deploying and limbering light and heavy guns? For non native English speakers it may be difficult to "deduct" reading a long post like this. Thx for the comprehension.
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Big Insect
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« Reply #7 on: 07 August 2019, 10:41:40 AM »

Hi Beekiller

We are finalizing the Errata and clarifications - so I am not ignoring you but it will be easier to post the final Errata piece on this, once it is finalized.

Thanks
Mark
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