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Author Topic: CO commanding units not ordered by an HQ  (Read 538 times)
T-Square
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« on: 22 June 2019, 11:51:29 PM »

We just had this happen and are looking for clarification.

On page 23 it states, "A CO can attempt to issue to units that failed to receive any orders from an HQ earlier in  the turn but will be subject to a -1 Command Penalty when doing so."

Hereís what happened.  An HQ had all its units suppressed except for a mortar unit.  The HQ did not issue any orders and moved to a more advantageous position.  The CO then decided to issue orders to the mortar unit to shoot.  Our issue falls on the words "failed to receive."  There are two opinions:

1.  One opinion thinks the that the -1 since the unit "failed to receive" an order. 
2.  The other opinion believes that since the HQ did not attempt to issue an order there was no order issued that could fail thus the -1 penalty does not apply.

Which is the correct interpretation?
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fred.
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« Reply #1 on: 23 June 2019, 07:42:31 AM »

No 2

No 2  is the normal situation, no order given, another HQ can order, distance penalties apply. (If you are playing fixed commands then you may not be in the habit of letting different HQs order the same units, on different turns).
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ianrs54
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« Reply #2 on: 23 June 2019, 08:18:46 AM »

No - if a unit has received a failed order then it can be ordered by a higher HQ, on a -1 for the failed attempt. NO EXCEPTIONS.

IanS
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fred.
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« Reply #3 on: 23 June 2019, 09:53:53 AM »

But in the example given, the HQ didnít issue an order to the mortar (or anything else for that matter)
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Shedman
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« Reply #4 on: 23 June 2019, 10:05:37 AM »

I agree with Fred

If no order is  given then the unit's not failed to receive an order
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Prophaniti
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« Reply #5 on: 23 June 2019, 10:33:57 AM »

I'm pretty confident that this rule was introduced in v2 so that a CO had a chance to activate units where an HQ failed on the first go.
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AJ at the Bank
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« Reply #6 on: 23 June 2019, 11:14:02 AM »

I believe this is how it works -

The Commanding Officer rule on p23..."The CO can attempt to issue orders to units that failed to receive any orders from an HQ earlier in the turn...."...applies to any unit(s) in an order group previously issued an order that game turn, but the command roll for that order was unsuccessful.

In your example - the mortar unit was not subject to to an unsuccessful order roll that turn - therefore the Commanding Officer rule cannot be used at all.

Here though - the previously un-ordered unit may be issued an order by another HQ unit or the CO ..dependant on which Tactical Doctrine (table on p74) the Battlegroup is subject to.

Rigid -     Mortar unit may not be issued an order by another HQ unit - but may be issued an order by the CO, subject to a -1 penalty
Normal -  HQ or CO may issue an order to the mortar - with a -1CV penalty on the roll
Flexible -  HQ or CO may issue an order to the mortar - without penalty

Note :  
(1) It was clarified in the BKCII Errata that the entries in this table should read "HQs and the CO..." when referring to order units in other formations. Doesn't look like this has made it's way into the BKCIV table though.
(2) If Fixed Formations optional rule is being used - then the mortar(un-ordered) unit cannot be issued orders by any Command other than it's fixed Command unit

PS - The HQ unit that "...moved to a more advantageous position.." in your example - should only move until after the CO finished his command order attempts. Moving Command units happens at the end of the Command Phase - per p18 Phases table.

Hope this helps
Adam
« Last Edit: 23 June 2019, 11:54:32 AM by AJ at the Bank » Logged

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fred.
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« Reply #7 on: 23 June 2019, 12:29:14 PM »

AJ - what you have quoted is only relevant if fixed formations are being used. There is no indication that the OP is using fixed formations.

See p22 issuing orders for the standard situation.

I do agree that normally you would only move HQs at the end of the phase, but I know a lot of players like to move command units once they have done all their orders. It seems a slight disadvantage to do this, so if players want to do this it seems fine.
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AJ at the Bank
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« Reply #8 on: 23 June 2019, 06:54:44 PM »

Interesting - thanks Fred -

If Fixed Formations are used - and that optional rule states that Commands cannot give orders to another formation units - why would there be references to doing this in the Doctrine table?

A
« Last Edit: 23 June 2019, 07:30:57 PM by AJ at the Bank » Logged

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Big Insect
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« Reply #9 on: 24 June 2019, 04:49:22 PM »

My thoughts are as follows:

1). if not playing fixed formations then there is no -1 for the CO (or any other HQ) to order the mortar, as it has not failed to receive an order previously

2). if playing fixed formations then the mortar has still not failed to receive an order (so no command penalty) but is being ordered from outside the fixed formation, so will be subject to a command penalty.

3). If the HQ had attempted to order the mortars, but failed, and then the CO attempted to command the mortar, the CO is subject to a double command penalty (once for commanding outside the fixed formation and once for the mortar having failed to receive an order from the HQ).

Cheers
Mark
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T-Square
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« Reply #10 on: 24 June 2019, 05:05:33 PM »

Mark,

As I thought.  Thank you.

Terry
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