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Author Topic: Suppressive Fire & Firing Modifiers  (Read 1354 times)
Dr Dave
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« Reply #30 on: 11 July 2019, 08:54:05 PM »

Boy is that going to cause some consternation.  I can see AT being able to push back Infantry and the like.  However, I can’t see small arms being able to cause AFVs to fall back.  Maybe if the small arms hitting on a 6, then roll a fallback die.  Small arms fire may scare them but the chances of knocking them out seem to be slim.  

If it’s suppressive fire (due to lack of any AT) then they do indeed only hit on a six, plus the AFV gets its save.

Ian - noted on the LMGs. In my 20mm skirmish days all of my 6 pdrs had a Bren detachment. Reading “The 17 pounder at Arnhem”, these fellows were a permanent detachment deployed to one side of the gun, not the gun crew happening to have a Bren gun to hand. Hence a troop of AT guns would have permanent access to 4x LMGs - plus whatever small arms the crew actually had. Obviously, doctrinally, this would be for emergency close defence. 

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“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
And the infantry are the bailiff’s men”
T-Square
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« Reply #31 on: 12 July 2019, 02:42:15 AM »

If it’s suppressive fire (due to lack of any AT) then they do indeed only hit on a six, plus the AFV gets its save.

Ian - noted on the LMGs. In my 20mm skirmish days all of my 6 pdrs had a Bren detachment. Reading “The 17 pounder at Arnhem”, these fellows were a permanent detachment deployed to one side of the gun, not the gun crew happening to have a Bren gun to hand. Hence a troop of AT guns would have permanent access to 4x LMGs - plus whatever small arms the crew actually had. Obviously, doctrinally, this would be for emergency close defence. 



I just went through the book.  I may have mIssed it.  Where does it say that when firing to only suppress you only hit on a 6?
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Big Insect
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« Reply #32 on: 12 July 2019, 08:06:37 AM »

The +1 d6 <20cm MG is only added to existing MGs on the AFV.

If you have an AFV with only AT (that means it has no MGs anyway) you do not add the +1 d6 <20cm as there is no MG to add.

Some AFV's specifically state that they have No MGs, so they do not get the +1 d6 <20cm. Their AP offensive stat is probably HE from their main gun.

Again, it's logical ... the <20cm might be smaller MGs on the vehicle, but equally it could be to reflect greater accuracy of the main guns AP factor at closer range.

This is one of those factors/rules that has been around across a number of earlier iterations of the rules but we will add a clarification in the suppression section of the errata.

We are also adding back in the missing - AFVs are only suppressed on a 6 from suppressive fire (which is old BKCII and CWC etc) in the errata. Thus avoiding the possibility of the mighty JS-III being suppressed by a lowly German infantry rifle platoon.

Hope that makes sense.
Mark
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T13A
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« Reply #33 on: 12 July 2019, 08:26:44 AM »

Hi Mark

Sorry for being a pain  Sad but can you please confirm (or otherwise) my last question of yesterday:

"You seem to be saying that an AFV, suppressed by small arms fire, hit again by further small arms fire can be forced to 'fall back' and KO'd as normal if it has to fall back over 10cm (as per summary list at the bottom of page 36)".

Is that correct?

Cheers Paul
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Big Insect
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« Reply #34 on: 12 July 2019, 09:56:42 AM »

Yes Paul

Units that are already suppressed by suppressive fire, will fall-back and can potentially be knocked-out as a result of further suppressions (whether from suppressive fire or ordinary Hits related suppressions or a combination).

Thanks
Mark
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Big Insect
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« Reply #35 on: 12 July 2019, 10:02:07 AM »

I just went through the book.  I may have mIssed it.  Where does it say that when firing to only suppress you only hit on a 6?

It doesn't Terry

It was a known omission/errata and will be corrected in the new BKCIV errata sheet - so you can only suppress with Suppressive Fire against AFVs (e.g. a 'Hard' target) on a 6

Thanks
Mark

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T13A
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« Reply #36 on: 12 July 2019, 02:10:11 PM »

Hi Mark

Many thanks.

Cheers Paul
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T-Square
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« Reply #37 on: 12 July 2019, 03:17:38 PM »

Mark,

Thank you.  That’s why I couldn’t find it. 

Terry
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #38 on: 13 July 2019, 09:52:52 AM »

Remember, the RAW is for tanks within no AP. If you use if for troops with no AT then the target AFV still gets a save against any hits. It will be difficult.

Interestingly the suppressive fire rule is only for guns with no AP capability as it appears in bkc1 and 3. There’s no mention of it applying to infantry with no AT. I spoke to a veteran of 1 Worcesters about 18 months ago and on the Island in Oct 44 they KO’d two German tanks with small arms fire. Both the commanders took head shots when the platoon let loose. So it’s difficult, not impossible, and small arms can push back (KO in game terms) AFVs.
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“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
And the infantry are the bailiff’s men”
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