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Author Topic: Suppressive Fire & Firing Modifiers  (Read 427 times)
AJ at the Bank
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« on: 02 June 2019, 04:59:11 PM »

Per Firing Modifiers table on p35...

Does an AFV firing AT for Suppressive Fire at Soft target get the +1 modifier if within 20cm please?


Thanks
Adam
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Big Insect
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« Reply #1 on: 02 June 2019, 05:04:01 PM »

Which modifier?

The +1 d6 for MGs or the +1 d6 for under half range?

I will check - not got my rules book with me, but I would suspect that the +1 for MG applies.
Quite why on earth you'd want to do it (fire your AT to suppress when you clearly have an AP factor that can knock-out and suppress) I am not sure.
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AJ at the Bank
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« Reply #2 on: 02 June 2019, 05:12:29 PM »

Thanks Mark

The +1 for AFVs firing at Soft targets within 20cm modifier

PS - Why would I choose to do this ? - See example with Tiger II firing in separate post.
So much easier to suppress infantry when Firing to Suppress rather than Firing to Kill (esp if not playing Optional Hits Stay On)....which then leaves suppressed infantry either nicely out of the fight...or to be attacked by other units and driven into Fall Back / Knocked-Out.

 
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AJ at the Bank
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« Reply #3 on: 09 June 2019, 11:11:00 AM »

Just in case this one forgotten -
Does the modifier apply please?
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Big Insect
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« Reply #4 on: 09 June 2019, 01:09:55 PM »

Which modifier?

The +1 d6 for shooting at under 20cms for having MGs at Soft target? Or the +1 d6 for shooting at under half range?

If the MGs, Yes as it is to represent the coax and other MGs it applies to bot the AT and AP factors regardless of target.
If it is half-range, Yes, as well as it is to represent the better effect of weapons close up.

NB: neither applies apply to Smoke as it is different - as you are not firing at the target to inflict casualties.

Does that make sense?

Cheers
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AJ at the Bank
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« Reply #5 on: 09 June 2019, 02:36:49 PM »

This does make sense - thanks Mark.

Reference your last point on Smoke - Didnt know that one....don't think that is in the rule book right...If yes - where please?
If no .....one for the Errata on that table on p35 and in QRS perhaps?

Thanks again

Adam
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Big Insect
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« Reply #6 on: 09 June 2019, 08:41:59 PM »

You do not need it as an Errata on Smoke AJ - Smoke does not inflict casualties - if you fire Smoke you are firing Smoke, nothing else.
If you fire your other weapons to inflict casualties you get the +1 MG.
The reason you do not get a +1 d:6 when firing Smoke is because the extra MGs do not add to your ability to actually shoot the smoke round ... it is logical ... doesn't need a rule or an errata.
Likewise being closer doesn't hugely help you as again the Smoke is no more or less effective the nearer the target is that it hits.

Thanks
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AJ at the Bank
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« Reply #7 on: 10 June 2019, 07:51:23 AM »

Thanks Mark

I can only make the suggestion.

Whilst I completely see the point on the logic - I honestly think its easier for players to see in a table - maybe thats just me though! Smiley
Example -
Player A ...."Dont get the benefit of half range because im firing smoke? .....Why not?...Where does it say that?"
Player B....."It doesn't ...it doesn't need to...it's self evident...Smoke is no more or less effective the nearer the target is that it hits."
Player B ...." ! ...I respectfully disagree - Its not in the rules..."





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Big Insect
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« Reply #8 on: 10 June 2019, 01:36:57 PM »

With huge respect to all your playing partners AJ ... you probably might need to tell them to get st*ff'd if that is the way they behave!  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy (NB: I might have to moderate myself now) Cry
If you are playing with such pendants, a nice chap like you should cut his losses and find a new club to play with IMHO.

I accept that a rules writer could write everything down in minute detail, and produce lots of tables, and have lots of photographic examples but in the end you'll never ever cover every eventuality or ever be able to replicate even the most simple of historical situations as adequately as some players would like. Also any paper based rules set will end up unreadable or so unwieldy as to be impractical. Hence my previous comment about on-line games (which was not meant flippantly).

We'll put some (doesn't apply when firing Smoke) notes in the errata for your 'difficult' friend  Wink

Cheers
mark
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AJ at the Bank
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« Reply #9 on: 10 June 2019, 04:34:55 PM »

Thanks Mark - much appreciated

Note -  I rather suspect Im more Player B sadly     Wink
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #10 on: 12 June 2019, 11:38:03 AM »


If the MGs, Yes as it is to represent the coax and other MGs it applies to both the AT and AP factors regardless of target.


Mark, you're comment that it applies to both AT and AP contradicts the rules. in the table on page 35 it says "+1 if the unit is an AFV firing at a soft target within 20cm" [bold as in the rules]

This is the same wording as bkc2.

Which is correct please?
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“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
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Big Insect
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« Reply #11 on: 13 June 2019, 09:49:35 AM »

No contradiction Dave.

The target must be 'Soft' - for the +1 for MG to apply, that is not in doubt.
You can fire AT at a 'Soft' target - you just get the extra +1 d6 for suppression.

But again, I am away on business without my Rules book to hand so will double check and revert about it applying to both AT and AP weapons.

The +1 for under half range applies against 'Hard' or 'Soft' targets and for AP and AT weapons
« Last Edit: 13 June 2019, 09:51:39 AM by Big Insect » Logged
Dr Dave
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« Reply #12 on: 13 June 2019, 05:39:56 PM »

Away again? How the jet set live...  Cool

I think I read your modifiers as applying to ALL fire, but I now think that you mean they apply to suppressive fire only - my mistake. So the MGs contribute to suppressive fire vs AFVs, but not for killing fire. the under 1/2 range always applies for direct and suppressive fire.
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“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
And the infantry are the bailiff’s men”
Big Insect
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« Reply #13 on: 14 June 2019, 09:16:22 AM »

No Dave

The Firing Modifiers table on Page 35 states:
+1 (d6) ... if the unit (firing) is an AFV (so a Tank or carrier or SPG or half-track) at a Soft target within 20cm (ie. infantry, soft-skin & towed gun). This represents the various MGs associated with with the AFV - such as a coax, top-hatch or hull mounted MGs

So ... this adds +1 d6 - to either the AT factor (assuming that the AFV only has AT to shoot - so no AP factor) and in that case it adds to the number of suppression dice.
However, if the AFV already has an AP factor (even if it has an AT factor) it must use the AP to shoot at the Soft target, so the additional d:6 adds to the potential number of to Hit dice (as a normal shot).

Clear?  Smiley
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #14 on: 14 June 2019, 06:44:18 PM »

I think I’m getting it. I do think that the suppressive fire section needs expanding and explaining. Sorry.

Am I right then in thinking that an AFV with no AP attacks can only use its 1x d6 MGs to suppress soft targets. It cannot kill soft targets (because it has no AP attacks).
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“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
And the infantry are the bailiff’s men”
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