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Author Topic: Suppressive Fire & Firing Modifiers  (Read 3143 times)
Big Insect
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« Reply #15 on: 15 June 2019, 11:03:46 PM »

Correct - but ....

Example 1:
A tank only has an AT of 3/40 and no AP attacks
  • @ 40cm it can fire its AT at an enemy Truck (Soft target) and gets 3 suppression d6
  • @ 20cms it can fire its AT supported by an additional +1 d6 for its MGs - but all count as suppressive shooting, it also gets an additional +1 d:6 for being at half range (on its primary weapon)

The alternative would be to give this Tank a 1/20 AP factor, but by doing so it cannot shoot its primary weapon (with its AT score) against Soft vehicles to suppress them (unless the target is over 20cms away). And if it is under 20cm its shooting dice are reduced to just 1/20 (the AP dice) as that must be used against a Soft target. This is not a desired outcome.

Example 2:
A tank only has an AT 3/40 and an AP 2/60 - as it has an AP factor it must use this when shooting against a Soft target
  • @ 60cm it can fire its AP at an enemy Truck (Soft target) and gets 2 hit d6
  • @ 30cms it can fire its AP but it also gets an additional +1 d:6 for being at half range
  • @ 20cm it adds another +1 d:6 to represent its close range MGs

This under 20cm +1 d6 for AFVs is an addition to the main armament, not a separate additional AP factor.

Does that help?
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #16 on: 16 June 2019, 12:42:23 PM »

Mark,

Yes, I think that I'm getting it:
1. Suppressive fire is only permitted if you have no ability to cause hits on the target. Fine with that;
2. All of the British 2pdr tanks have AP and AT attacks - hence they can't ever use suppressive fire;
3. British 2pdr AT guns have AT only (no MGs) so they can use suppressive fire vs soft targets;

Is that right?


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Big Insect
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« Reply #17 on: 16 June 2019, 10:56:06 PM »


1. this is specified somewhere in the rules (I do not have my set with me) but that is correct. If you have a weapon that can inflict Hits on a target you must use that weapon. The only exception is Smoke. You can choose to fire Smoke at a Soft or Hard target, even if you have an AT &/or an AP factor. Smoke is different from other rounds.

2. No ... 0-40 AT represents SMOKE - so as you cannot inflict HITS or Suppression with Smoke - you use the AP stats at all times - against Hard targets you suppress, against Soft targets you inflict Hits. You do not get a +1d6 for shooting Smoke at under half range or a +1 d:6 for MGs if firing Smoke.

3). Yes. AT guns with solid shot and no HE cannot inflict Hits on Soft targets only potentially suppression. They get a +1 d:6 for shooting at a target under half range but no +1 d:6 under 20cm because they are not an AFV.
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T13A
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« Reply #18 on: 09 July 2019, 03:32:56 PM »

Hi

Further to the above queries and clarifications, what happens to an AFV that is already 'suppressed' by small arms fire and is hit again by small arms fire in a subsequent order phase? Do the usual 'Fall back' and 'Retreat' rules apply including the possibility of being knocked out? 

Can someone please point out to me where this is covered in the rules as I'm introducing a friend to BKC tomorrow and I know they will be asking!

Cheers Paul
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T-Square
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« Reply #19 on: 09 July 2019, 09:51:17 PM »

No fall back because the fire hitting it does not have the ability to knock out the unit, only to suppress it.  Itís similar to sniper fire, it suppressed but does not cause fall back.
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T13A
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« Reply #20 on: 10 July 2019, 08:03:45 AM »

Hi T-Square

Many thanks again for the clarification. I'm just about to introduce a friend to BKC, can you please tell me where that is in the rules (I know he will be asking)?

Cheers Paul
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #21 on: 10 July 2019, 09:01:54 AM »

No fall back because the fire hitting it does not have the ability to knock out the unit, only to suppress it.  Itís similar to sniper fire, it suppressed but does not cause fall back.


Thatís not how I read it. Bottom half of p.36 seems pretty explicit.
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Ithoriel
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« Reply #22 on: 10 July 2019, 11:07:19 AM »

p.35 Calculating Fire says that such fire only causes Suppression. We've taken that to mean that suppressions is literally the only possible effect.

Another one for clarification?
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ianrs54
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« Reply #23 on: 10 July 2019, 11:54:45 AM »

Dave - the 2pdr crew would at least have rifles, and towed guns DID have HE. Also each gun could well have a Bren issued with it, that was standard for most towed guns, for site protection.

IanS
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sultanbev
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« Reply #24 on: 10 July 2019, 12:11:13 PM »

I'd agree with that, British and German ATG platoons always had at least one LMG, more often one per gun, and all the crew had rifles. Not that I can think of any ATG that didn't have HE, but even if so, an A/P factor of 1/30cm as a minimum is going to apply to all towed guns of every army.

Mark
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T-Square
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« Reply #25 on: 10 July 2019, 12:29:11 PM »

Thatís not how I read it. Bottom half of p.36 seems pretty explicit.

The way I read it is that there are no unsaved hits.  (i.e. none of the hits inflict damage)
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sultanbev
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« Reply #26 on: 10 July 2019, 01:18:06 PM »

Ah, seems we are talking about two different things here.
I'm basically saying that there would never be a situation where a unit doesn't have an Anti-Personnel factor. So there would never be a situation where you use A/T factors against soft targets, unless you are out of range with your A/P factor. In which case firing armour-piercing rounds at infantry or trucks c800m or further away should be useless anyway, or even at 80m for that matter, unless they are in a house or pillbox. Rules allowing armour-piercing ammo to suppress entire platoons of anti-tank guns or infantry for example is generous to say the least.

I think the Calculating Fire section on pg.35 should read.

To calculate firing, take the attack value of the unit from the army list (eg, an attack stat of 3/60 has an attack value of 3 dice). If the target is a soft target, you must use A/P factor if available at that range. if the target is a hard target (units with a save value) then you must use the A/T factor. If you are out of range for your appropriate attack factor, then you can use the other attack factor if it is in range, but be aware it can only cause suppression, and this is named Suppressive Fire. .....

The chapter on Knock-Out on page 36 seems to be completely missing a paragraph on what to do when you fire suppressive fire only. I'd have thought this to be appropriate

When firing Suppressive Fire, that is, using the incorrect attack factor for the target type, the target cannot be knocked out, nor made to suffer subsequent fall backs by similar fire. Calculate the number of hits as usual, and carry out the number of saves. If there are any unsaved hits left, then test to see if the unit is suppressed. If a unit is already suppressed and further hit by Suppressive Fire, it suffers no further ill effect. The idea of multiple activations with a few Bren guns driving off entire platoons of Tiger II tanks is absurd.

Or you can make the fallback rule still apply, but no knock out effect. But as the effect of being suppressed is basically the platoon is temporarily knocked out for the rest of the game turn - is that not drastic enough?

Mark B
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Big Insect
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« Reply #27 on: 11 July 2019, 12:53:16 PM »

The number of gun crew with LMGs, rifles etc is considered to be too small to warrant an AP factor. And if we were to allocate an AP factor it would be very low.
So any AT guns or AFVs only firing AT shot - so with no HE rounds - will not have an AP factor (unless the AFV also has MGs in which case it will have an AP factor and must use that.

Units only with AT factors can shoot with their AT factor but this only causes suppression on a target.
'Hits' are caused on a target as usual and can be saved - but instead of putting hits on the unit these become suppressions.
If the same suppressed unit is hit again (by any fire) and receives more hit/suppressions, these are treated as suppressions for fall-back purposes.

Such a AT only unit does not get a +1 <20cm as there is no MG but do get the +1 d6 for under half-range (as this reflect things like better accuracy.

Shooting Smoke at a target unit does not cause casualties, does not get a +1 d:6 for under 20cms and does not get a +1 d6 for under half-range.

I hope that clarifies things

Mark
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T13A
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« Reply #28 on: 11 July 2019, 01:48:07 PM »

Hi Mark

Just to confirm.

You seem to be saying that an AFV, suppressed by small arms fire, hit again by further small arms fire can be forced to 'fall back' and KO'd as normal if it has to fall back over 10cm (as per summary list at the bottom of page 36).

Is that correct?

Cheers Paul
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T-Square
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« Reply #29 on: 11 July 2019, 07:59:09 PM »

Boy is that going to cause some consternation.  I can see AT being able to push back Infantry and the like.  However, I canít see small arms being able to cause AFVs to fall back.  Maybe if the small arms hitting on a 6, then roll a fallback die.  Small arms fire may scare them but the chances of knocking them out seem to be slim.  
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