Firing Example Query

[AJ at the Bank]

Question on Firing & Firing for Suppression for clarification please...

Have I got the following example right please? -

US Veteran Infantry unit (cost 65) vs German Tiger II tank (cost 265 points):
Facing each other on open ground, 30 cms apart - exchange of fire ...

(1) US Unit - chooses to fire to suppress (per p35 - Calculating Firing) using 5/30 AP firing
  (a) Rolls 5 dice (no modifiers) - but re-rolls 1's (using 2nd roll) as Veteran. Needs 4,5,6 to hit
  (b) Average hits = 3. Causes no damaging hits as Firing for Suppression only
  (c) Tiger II saves on 3+....so average that 1 hit is not saved
  (d) Infantry rolls to suppress, needing 4,5,6  
  (e) Conclusion = Suppresses Tiger II 50% of time

(2) Tiger II - Can choose to fire with either 3/100 AP stats or 6/100 AT stats to Suppress
If chooses AP -
  (a) Rolls 3 dice (3 base : +1 half range : -1 Low Profile target). Needs 4,5,6 to hit
  (b) Average hits = 1.5 (say 1 for this example) actual hits. No saves
  (c) Rolls to suppress, needing 4,5,6
  (d) Conclusion = Suppresses Infantry 50% of time, + 1 hit real damage (remove at end of turn)

If chooses AT-
  (a) Rolls 6 dice (6 base : +1 half range : -1 Low Profile target). Needs 4,5,6 to hit
  (b) Average hits = 3. No saves. Causes no damaging hits as Firing for Suppression only
  (c) Rolls to suppress, needing 4,5,6
  (d) Conclusion = Likely to Suppress Infantry


If correct please - Is it really meant to be that easy for a single Infantry unit to suppress the mighty King Tiger unit with small arms fire?

PS: Heaven forbid the US player then chooses Suppresson Fire with another unit(s) firing small arms - good chance of causing the King Tiger unit to Fall Back and potential Knock-Out - all from small arms!?

[Dr Dave]

 I just read it and it looks to be right. 

The thing to note is that all attacks are rolled together. So if you had a second firing US infantry unit it would need to be firing under a different order, or from a different command, to get a second suppression to cause a retreat.

[AJ at the Bank]

Yes correct Dr.

So next order (or first order if this was Initiative Suppressive Fire) or another Commander's order ....not hard to do is it?

[Dr Dave]

I have just returned from the venerated catacombs of the lower lectorium where the copy of BKCI is stored an velum lined oak casket.

I can now confirm that the thrust of the original rules for suppression is that you could only use suppressive fire if you had no capability to kill, that is to actually cause hits. So in your example the infantry can use suppressive fire on the tank, but the tank would have had to use it's AP (HE & MG) attacks. So that makes sense. Also, hits from suppressive fire are only caused on a roll of 6 in BKC I and III - suppressive fire was missed out of BKC II.

The apparent vulnerability of your Tiger II to maximum range infantry fire is not resolved by this for BKCIV. It might be one for the errata - "suppressive fire hits are only caused on a roll of 6"

[AJ at the Bank]

Thanks Dr.

Suppressive Fire when cannot damage the target does start to make more sense in the game.....but as you point out .....needs a mechanism to ensure balance

PS: I keep my copy of v1 next to the copy of v2 ...and now v4.

V3 - errrr...... Landfill/recycled somewhere!

[Cross698]

Far to easy to suppress in my view, i'll use the rules that were itroduced in V3, a hard chance, but still a chance.

[Dr Dave]

Sorry. Posted while you were posting:

Hits from suppressive fire are only caused on a roll of 6 in BKC I and III - suppressive fire was missed out of BKC II.

The apparent vulnerability of your Tiger II to maximum range infantry fire is not resolved by this for BKCIV. It might be one for the errata - "suppressive fire hits are only caused on a roll of 6"

[Big Insect]

You are all correct in your own ways 

The intention is not to have the might Tiger suppressed so easily by mere infantry.
I'll pick up on the BKCI suggestions and the suppression a 6 only approach in the errata.

FYI - there was a Tiger in the post DDay Normany battles where the crew bailed out and surrendered to British infantry after it had been hit by a Smoke round.
The smoke got drawn in through the ventilation system and they thought that a). they were on fire and b). they would get suffocated.

But I don't think we should be making a rule out of it myself 

Cheers

[TinyTinTroops]

Where is the modifier (-1) for a low profile target ? I've never seen that one.

I've never played any version of BKC before and I'm finding it difficult to track all the modifiers because they seem to scattered randomly around the rule sections and not on the QRS.

We came across this in today's game and just decided that the chance of infantry w/o AT weapons suppressing a tank was too small to even think about allowing them to try.