Motorcycles, Sidecars & Bicycles

[AJ at the Bank]

Couple of clarification queries ref these rules on p33 please -

(1) "All motorcycles treat all terrain as if they were Infantry" - Given motorcycles have the Wheeled ability ....is this meant to refer to Bicycles please?

(2) "All motorcycles and bicycles must be stationary to shoot ..." -
(i)  Does this mean troops must be dismounted to fire using Infantry unit stats please (noting don't need a deploy action to dismount)?
(ii) Clearly motorcycles have an AP capability of their own - is it intended that these units can fire using their own AP stats when transporting?
(iii) Confused about the 'must be stationary' bit - as all units are stationary in the round they fire aren't they (Initiative or Command)- save maybe tank desant units?

Thanks
A

[AJ at the Bank]

Sorry also -

(1) Are motorcycle Special Ability benefits cumulative please?

E.g. If firing at moving motorcycles do units get -1d6 to hit due to FAST + -1d6 to hit due to Low Profile?

(1) Do you only count as firing on moving motorcycle units if firing as Opportunity Fire in reaction to Moving....or also during the Command Phase if the last action of motorcycle unit was a Move please? 

Many thanks
A

[fred.]

No, special rules that do the same thing don't stack. See the note at the start of the special rules.

Earlier discussions have suggested that Fast's limitation to moving is pretty unplayable.

My analysis of the lists says Fast is pointless as in virtually all cases it overlaps with low profile.

[Big Insect]

An attempt to answer the various questions posed here - I would refer you all back to Page 33 of the rules.

1). Motorcycle units must be stationary to shoot. Yes, all units (with some possible exceptions in US tank units) but again we are talking about a 30 minute game turn here - do we not thing that an American A3 half-track doesn't fire its 0.50cal as it advances? Of course it does but for game play purposes it doesn't. Motorcycles are the same (see 3 below)

2). How you play motor cycle units all depends upon what scale you are playing the game at.
If in 2mm - 10mm most players do not have dismounted figures for their motorcycles (somebody will howl that of course they do,but that's been the general consensus) so we needed some AP stats that reflected a unit on motorcycles in combat. Of course a motorcycle without its rider(s) cannot fight or shoot. That is blindingly obvious. So if you do choose to dismount your motorcycle crew - just leave the unmanned motorcycle base where the crew dismount. They will behave like other transports - or more like unmounted cavalry (as unlike trucks or wagons they have no crews to move them about).
If you play 15mm or larger you might choose to have a dismounted version of your motorcycle or bicycle mounted troops (in 20mm or 28mm that is probably desirable).
This is all outlined clearly on Page 33.

3). Movement and shooting - Page 1 (introduction) a game move is up to 30 minutes of time - so units can be moving, re positioning themselves move forward slightly or back in that 30 mins. They can also be totally still or dormant - it doesn't matter for game play purposes. It was deliberately stated that Motorcycles could not fire whilst moving because the concept was argued out in the play-testing - as (once again) there are too many instances (in Hollywood) where motorcycles and side-car combos with MGs in the sidecar dash about shooting everything up.
If you are playing the smaller scales and not using separate dismounted bases, then your motorcycle units can fire as any other normal troops.
If you are playing larger scale figures, your riders must dismount to shoot. But again, that is just a matter of common sense - the same applies to bicycle units - shooting anything (other than maybe a crossbow with no recoil) on a bicycle is probably more dangerous to the rider than a target!
Firing as an Initiative action, Commanded action or an Opportunity action makes no difference. Motorcycles and Bicycles must be stationary to fire.

4). We have had this debate about FAST and LOW PROFILE before - see the top of Page 76 - no combination of abilities can create a situation where a unit cannot be targeted ... or that doubles up a defensive factor.  Some units are only Low Profile, some are only Fast (some of the A/C's in the list should be just FAST - that is an already picked up errata).
Motorcycle units are Fast and Low Profile - because if I hadn't made them both somebody would have complained that they were either Fast or Low profiled and why had I missed off the option. Bicycles are just Low Profile.
NB: the issue about FAST has already been picked up on and commented on in another thread and will be clarified in the Errata. Does anybody doubt that when moving motorcycles are generally Fast? Especially on roads?

5). Motorcycles and Bicycles are wheeled (obviously) so they are affected by wire and linear obstacles. If you choose to depict your riders as dismounts, they behave like infantry but cannot drag their mounts through barbed wire or over walls or hedges ... that is again, common sense.

Partly the reason for not putting all this in the rules is that we'd end up with a 300 page rules set ...

Cheers
Mark

[Risaldar Singh]

Motorcycles and Bicycles must be stationary to fire.

Could you please elaborate? There are only three (mutually exclusive) command actions: Move, Assault or Fire. By definition, no unit in the game is moving while it is firing.

[Big Insect]

PLease read my reply above

Thank you

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

On your point about barbed wire, most if not all infantry carry at least some wire cutters. It would allow M/C's to cross the wire eventually. Bicycles could be carried across, dismount on one side, cross obstacle and remount. Of course it may take 3 orders, Dismount, clear wire, remount.

IanS

[Big Insect]

And also gets very complicated Ian, as a unit under fire (even if it is not suppressed) will (in real life) take cover and stop wire cutting
But I get your point about wire - it has been picked up as an errata.
It is just to make the point that motorcycles & bicycles do not just ride over wire.

Common sense really

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Mark - objective of any obstacle is to delay, not deny. However - Cavalry cant cross barbed wire even if its been flattened by a tank (proved at Cambrai in '17) but there is no reason why cyclists couldn't. I agree it gets granular. I disagree about stopping if under fire, you just lie down and cut from below.

IanS

[AJ at the Bank]

Sorry Mark -

Finding some of this a bit tricky to follow - Im sure its me. 

(1)
"All motorcycles and bicycles must be stationary to shoot ..." - p33
(i)  Does this mean troops must be dismounted to fire using Infantry unit stats please (noting don't need a deploy action to dismount)? Y or N please?
(ii) Clearly motorcycles have an AP capability of their own - is it intended that these units can fire using their own AP stats when transporting infantry? Y or N please?
(iii) Similar to (ii) ....can motorcycles fire using their own AP stats when not transporting? Y or N please?

Note - We have always played that transported units cannot fire until dismounted and that any unit with attack stats can fire on their own - irrelevent of whether they are transporting units. E.g. US or Britsh  M3/M5 Halftracks or German 250/1 halftracks or motorcycles can fire using their own stats irrelevent of trnasporting or not.


Finally - sounds like in game play terms, the 'must be stationary' point is irrelevant. Thanks for clarifying this!
Cheers
Adam

[Risaldar Singh]

PLease read my reply above

Thank you

I'm sorry if I sound thick or something but I did read your reply before quoting it. Every unit that fires is by definition stationary since there is no such thing as a Move & Fire command action. Either "All motorcycles and bicycles must be stationary to shoot ..." is redundant or it means something else. The only other use of stationary in the whole rules is with regards to spotter planes who are deemed to be circling if the model stays put on the table, so that's no help.

[AJ at the Bank]

To be fair Risaladar - Mark has put this one to bed in his last reply...

In game play terms the "must be stationary" is clarified as irrelevant here.

[Big Insect]

Answers in bold inserted AJ:

1)
(i)  Does this mean troops must be dismounted to fire using Infantry unit stats please (noting don't need a deploy action to dismount)? Y or N please?
(it depends - sorry) - if playing that you are dismounting your riders - then Yes they must dismount to shoot.
If playing in a scale where you do not dismount your riders it is irrelevant, as the bikes and the riders are an integral unit not separate riders and mounts. Does that make sense?

(ii) Clearly motorcycles have an AP capability of their own - is it intended that these units can fire using their own AP stats when transporting infantry? Y or N please?
No - motorcycles only have an AP if they are in contact with their riders it is the riders AP in association with the motorcycles - but again - it depends upon what scale and whether you are dismounting your riders. The motorcycle cannot shoot on their own (without riders). The AP stats are for a situation where the riders are integral on the same base as the motorcycle.

(iii) Similar to (ii) ....can motorcycles fire using their own AP stats when not transporting? Y or N please?
No.

Note - We have always played that transported units cannot fire until dismounted and that any unit with attack stats can fire on their own - irrelevent of whether they are transporting units. E.g. US or Britsh  M3/M5 Halftracks or German 250/1 halftracks or motorcycles can fire using their own stats irrelevent of trnasporting or not.
That sounds OK - but this assumes that there is a crew in the haltrack to fire the MGs. In the case of a motorcycle or bicycle this cannot be the case. So does not apply. Again, does that help?

I am aware this is complex - it comes from the issue of having a set of rules that can be played across many figure scales.
Mark

Finally - sounds like in game play terms, the 'must be stationary' point is irrelevant. Thanks for clarifying this!

[Big Insect]

Answers in bold inserted AJ:

1)
(i)  Does this mean troops must be dismounted to fire using Infantry unit stats please (noting don't need a deploy action to dismount)? Y or N please?
(it depends - sorry) - if playing that you are dismounting your riders - then Yes they must dismount to shoot.
If playing in a scale where you do not dismount your riders it is irrelevant, as the bikes and the riders are an integral unit not separate riders and mounts. Does that make sense?

(ii) Clearly motorcycles have an AP capability of their own - is it intended that these units can fire using their own AP stats when transporting infantry? Y or N please?
No - motorcycles only have an AP if they are in contact with their riders it is the riders AP in association with the motorcycles - but again - it depends upon what scale and whether you are dismounting your riders. The motorcycle cannot shoot on their own (without riders). The AP stats are for a situation where the riders are integral on the same base as the motorcycle.

(iii) Similar to (ii) ....can motorcycles fire using their own AP stats when not transporting? Y or N please?
No.

Note - We have always played that transported units cannot fire until dismounted and that any unit with attack stats can fire on their own - irrelevent of whether they are transporting units. E.g. US or Britsh  M3/M5 Halftracks or German 250/1 halftracks or motorcycles can fire using their own stats irrelevent of trnasporting or not.
That sounds OK - but this assumes that there is a crew in the haltrack to fire the MGs. In the case of a motorcycle or bicycle this cannot be the case. So does not apply. Again, does that help?

I am aware this is complex - it comes from the issue of having a set of rules that can be played across many figure scales.
Mark

Finally - sounds like in game play terms, the 'must be stationary' point is irrelevant. Thanks for clarifying this!

Yes ... you must be stationary to shoot - regardless

[AJ at the Bank]

Thanks Mark - this is very clear - nearly perfect !


However ....Just that last thing about must be stationary to fire    :-  ...

I think what is confusing us - is that in game terms - this seems to mean nothing.
It might be useful real-world justifaction for firing .....but in the game where you either Move, Fire, Deploy etc ....you can only be stationary when you Fire ...because you are not undertaking another action. So irrelevent.
E.g. My motorcycle unit (transporting an infantry unit) belts down a road at double speed on Action 1. I successfully make my next command roll to Fire at an enemy unit ....I can do so - as on that action ...I am stationary.

Unless - somehow it matters what the unit was doing the previous action? E.g. motorcycles cannot fire when the previous action was a Move order?   I doubt this is the case though?


I think the best way to put this finally to bed - is if you would be kind enough to confirm whether there is a game play example that prohibits the motorcycle unit firing - then thickos like me will finally get it!


Thanks again for your tested patience!