Using Artillery to "clear" smoke screens

Started by Dr Dave, 26 May 2019, 02:04:51 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Big Insect

It is worth reading up on WW1 experiences with Smoke - I'll check my reference sources, but I think it was at Ypres, where British Smoke was due to be dropped on the German trenches after a major artillery (HE) concentration/barrage was fired. However, the 2 sets of gunners didn't/couldn't co-ordinate and the HE continued to fall as the Smoke shells were also delivered.
The HE dispersed the Smoke and the ensuing infantry attack was cut down.
This is based on actual British Army reports (as there was an inquiry) and also personal letters from the troops involved.

If a player wants to drop Smoke on an enemy and the enemy then shell their own troops with HE to clear it, I think I'd not want to be on the receiving end of that enquiry.
And you cannot shell your own troops with Smoke (that's a ruling).

Cheers
Mark



'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

Dr Dave

Mark, noted and thanks.

My initial thought is that your evidence is from WW1 (a different war where artillery smoke was a relatively immature technology) and is contradicted by evidence from WW2 - where mixed HE/Smoke was employed in single shoots.

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Smoke in WWI was primarily used to con the enemy into thinking they were under a gas attack, rather than for concealment.

IanS
FOG IN CHANNEL - EUROPE CUT OFF
Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
Muppet of the year 2019, 2020 and 2021

Dr Dave

From the 2nd Canadian Division fire plan at the start of Op Veritable

Fire Sp [support]
a. Arty:
i. the outline Corps fire plan is as follows:
0500 - - arty preparation starts
0730 - 0740 - smoke screen starts
0740 - 0750 - complete silence incl PEPPER POT
0750 - arty fire recommences
0915 - smoke screen NW edge REICHSWALD starts
0920 - intense CB as a result of infm from smoke screen
0920 - opening line of barrage (mixed HE and smoke) starts
1000 - complete barrage starts
1030 - H hr and first lift

I seem to have misplaced my copy of "Barrage" by Ian Hogg  :'( - so I've just ordered another copy  :D

Big Insect

Maybe Ian but the principle was the same - the British Tommies expected to be screened by the smoke but it was dispersed by their own HE and the German MG nests quickly reoccupied could see the advancing Brits easily and gunned them down.
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

sultanbev

But this is a WW2 set of rules, not WW1.....

Mark

Dr Dave

Quote from: sultanbev on 06 June 2019, 07:00:11 PM
But this is a WW2 set of rules, not WW1.....

The other points to consider are
- we don't know if the infantry attack failed and they were simply looking to blame someone else (not the first time) - what was the result of the enquiry?
- what was the weather doing. If windy, that might be why the smoke was dispersed
- This, I think, is the only set of rules that allow this to happen. Has everyone else really missed it?
- The physics of obscurants don't let this happen. Explosions can't cause aggregation (clumping) of the smoke particles that would make them drop out of suspension.
- Besides your gunner has anyone else claimed this is an issue. Was the smoke blocking his los in a game when he suggested it?..
- Battlefield ISTAR is my area and I've never heard of this and none of my Arty colleagues think this is possible
- Real WW2 accounts show smoke and HE was mixed.

T13A

Hi Mark

For what it is worth I have seen mixed HE and smoke used by 105mm Abbots in the 70's (yes I know it is the wrong 'period') and the HE certainly did not 'clear' the smoke. Sorry Mark, but I cannot help feeling that it is rules like this one that give a rule set a bad name. 

That said I admire your persistence in 'defending' a dodgy position!  ;)

Just my tuppence worth.

Cheers Paul
T13A Out!

Big Insect

The difference between a WW2 and a WW1 shelling is probably marginal from a set of rules perspective.

I will find the actual quotes and whilst I can see that dropping modern smoke might be different I'm sticking to my guns currently  :D
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

Dr Dave

Today I asked another RA gunnery instructor and two chaps working in "operational analysis" and ammo design. All three thought that this is not possible. A BSM from Larkhill also says that this isn't possible. Physics of suspensions and blast waves don't allow it. You'll move it a little within the screen, but you'll never remove it.  :(

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Ok if we doing technical stuff there were two types of smoke :-

Base Eject- this is non phosphorous and used almost entirely by the British - smoke candles were ejected from the rear of the shell. Takes a little longer to build a screen but it lasts much longer. It also has no anti-personnel effect.

White Phosphorous - shell bursts on impact and releases a cloud of chemical smoke. This has an anti-personnel effect and dissipates a bit quicker. I suspect that WW1 smoke was of this type.  Its very dangerous, and self defence smoke is of this type (grenades and dischargers) .

Unless the HE fire destroys all the candles a base eject screen is going to remain, and a phosphorus screen is a scattering of small pellets over an area so the HE is going to have little effect. Also only ground burst HE is going to have an effect, if any.

The rule should be removed.

IanS
FOG IN CHANNEL - EUROPE CUT OFF
Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
Muppet of the year 2019, 2020 and 2021

sultanbev

"The rule should be removed. "

Seconded.