Using Artillery to "clear" smoke screens

[Dr Dave]

Spotted this on p.49, but I can't understand how this is possible in the real world. Anyone know of any examples of it being used in real world?

[Big Insect]

It is what has been agreed on as part of the play testing.
If you do not like it Dr Dave ... fine ... set up your own house rule 

But from talking to modern artillerymen you do not combine HE with Smoke as it blows the smoke all over the place and dissipates it.
if you want to drop smoke and HE then drop the HE as one order and the Smoke as the final order.

Cheers
Mark

[Dr Dave]

Thanks Mark - I'll check it out 

We've not played that yet. We do deduct one dice if shooting through a concentration due to amount of Sh&*% flying around that would limit visibility - but not completely block it.

[Dr Dave]

I spoke to several gunner NCOs and Officers up to Lt Col.

They stated that it is not possible to clear a smoke screen with artillery, air or ground burst. They were a bit confused how it might ever be considered possible. Explosions add to the screen, they don't "blow" the smoke away. I think the play-testing might have departed from reality?

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Didnt say anything - but was wondering where that came from..Artillery blocks vision, although not so much with the modern stuff, which is much less ground burst.

[Westmarcher]

Not my era of interest, wargaming wise, so, please, bear with me. Why would you want to clear a smokescreen? Presumably you or the enemy would lay down smoke to attack or slip away. If attacking, would you not wish to do so immediately, before the smoke dissipates? And if so, does this give the defender enough time to call in an accurate artillery barrage? And if the defender does have enough time, would the point of the barrage not be to halt or disrupt the attack and not simply blow away smoke? I'm puzzled. 

[AJ at the Bank]

Hi Westmarcher -

Is your question ref 'real world' or 'in the game' please?

A

[Westmarcher]

As far as possible, isn't one of the aims of the game to try to simulate aspects of the real world on the tabletop?

[AJ at the Bank]

ah....   the Dr. is your man there

[Dr Dave]

As far as possible, isn't one of the aims of the game to try to simulate aspects of the real world on the tabletop?

Yes, absolutely.

In the game there's the potential for:
- Side A drops smoke to obscure his approach and begins his advance (or withdrawal)
- Then side B (in the game) drops HE that "clears" the smoke. The screen is removed. Side B can now see and fire on Side A's troops in the open as they move.

This doesn't seem to be possible in the real world. As Ian has said - you can't see through ground burst artillery when it lands let alone a smoke screen and even airburst kicks up a hell of a lot of dust. In reality, all fire actually adds to a smoke screen. To disperse a smoke screen you'd need to have consistent external force to "blow" in the same direction for some period of time – the wind – not explosions within the screen caused by additional HE. The added HE just creates more dust and crap to add to the original obscurant, though not as well due to its physical size. Smoke particulates are generally smaller than the soil dust thrown up.

This game mechanic also falls over in the face of real world mixed smoke and HE shoots. The solution to fire HE and then smoke is just a faff and it wasn't done like that anyway. It also falls over in the famous case of op Veritable. British arty hit the German positions to some depth, then switched smoke onto their front line. Jerry took this to be the start of the infantry advance and so fired HE into the Brit smoke – to kill the assaulting infantry. It did not clear the smoke. If it had Jerry would have seen there was no infantry. British and Canadian arty and mortar location radar plotted the positions of the Jerry arty that was firing and it all had another 2 hrs of fire.

There doesn't seem to be anything in the battlespace for clearing smoke short of a stiff breeze and nukes (old footage shown them party the clouds).

[fsn]

For the real world effect, you need a level 10 wizard with a weather control spell.

Or Storm from the XMen.

[Dr Dave]

 

[steve_holmes_11]

For the real world effect, you need a level 10 wizard with a weather control spell.

Or Storm from the XMen.

Or a helicopter (or several).

[Dr Dave]

Or a helicopter (or several).

...but then, dependant on environment, you get "brown out" - big problem in the deserty places.

[sultanbev]

Yes, I've never heard of artillery HE clearing smoke. I've heard of mixed HE and smoke shoots. I've seen film footage where HE barrages make smoke in effect, just with all the dust and debris they through up. But I've never heard of HE barrages disrupting or clearing a smoke screen.