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Author Topic: Air Support - Scheduled Strikes No AA  (Read 1059 times)
AJ at the Bank
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« on: 26 May 2019, 12:48:44 PM »

May I please ask why the p16 rule on Scheduled Strikes not subject to AA fire?
 
Bombers and Ground-Attack Air units in Requested Air Cover may be subject to enemy AA fire .....why same units not subject to AA when Scheduled please (particularly with auto target hit in Scheduled) ?

Must be something to do with game balance I guess? Were people seeing Air as too ineffective due to AA fire?

Thanks
Adam
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fred.
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« Reply #1 on: 26 May 2019, 01:44:31 PM »

We were surprised at this too. Seems an odd exception
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #2 on: 26 May 2019, 01:55:22 PM »

I think it's a error / typo. The notion that the enemy wont shoot at certain planes because he knows how they arrived over the front is a bit... well...   Grin

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Big Insect
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« Reply #3 on: 26 May 2019, 04:30:12 PM »

OK folks - please do not automatically assume it is an error  Cheesy

There is an issue here around Strategic Bombing and AA.
This came up with the play-testing and got batted around all over the place, both for and against with good arguments by both sides.

Just how high up is that Flying Fortress flying when it drops it's bombs? !!!
Does a small battle group have large caliber AA support to fend off even a medium altitude attack? 

Have a mull ...
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #4 on: 26 May 2019, 04:39:20 PM »

Good point, I was assuming GA like 109s and Stukas, not He111.

Only dedicated AA units (not HQs etc) can engage "bombers"? And then they have to be > 25mm (?) - gives Jerry a reason for the 37mm and the Brits etc to have Bofors?

An 88 in game terms is NOT an AA system - wrong sights, wrong ammo... 88's in AA role are for shooting at B17s and Halifaxs - which are NOT in the game.

my 2p
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fred.
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« Reply #5 on: 26 May 2019, 06:06:17 PM »

In our game it was Stukas that as scheduled couldnít be shot at,  but when called in could be shot at.

I get the point about bombers. And perhaps that is the difference. Scheduled bombers either canít be shot at, or only by dedicated AA.
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #6 on: 26 May 2019, 06:20:34 PM »

Itís more the altitude as opposed to when or how they arrive. GA is low, bombers are high.

If HQ AA is units MGs then Iíd ignore it vs bombers. Even 20 mm fire wonít be much use above a few thousand feet.
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AJ at the Bank
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« Reply #7 on: 26 May 2019, 09:14:40 PM »

There is an issue here around Strategic Bombing and AA.


Interesting debate perhaps on the difference with firing AA at Strategic bombing rather than non-Strategic bombing Ö.however Ö.


The current rule As Is doesn't seem to make any sense ...that the same AA units can fire at Requested enemy aircraft - but they cannot fire at the same aircraft (inc. AIR:GA) when they are flying in the Scheduled Phase.

IMO - Either scrap this rule ...or if its something to do with AIR:BM ...come up with something not too detailed that makes a distinction between AA impacting AIR:GA and AIR:BM.
Persoanlly I like Dr Dave's idea about only being able to fire at AIR:BM with ART:AA units - although acknowledging that this does make AIR:BM units tougher.

A


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Big Insect
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« Reply #8 on: 26 May 2019, 10:38:41 PM »

Again - the same bombers can fly at different heights and in different tactical roles. Adding extra complexity around which aircraft can and cannot fly Scheduled Missions and which AA calibres can or cannot shoot at strategic bombing runs - is also to be avoided.

The rule is that air attacks in the Scheduled Phase are not subject to AA, for a good reason.

Again, if you want to create your own house rule Adam, by all means please do so.

many thanks

Mark
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AJ at the Bank
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« Reply #9 on: 26 May 2019, 10:43:44 PM »

Thanks Mark

That's what I am trying to understand - what's the 'good reason'.
E.g. Good reason why AIR:GA cant be shot at in Scheduled?

I genuinely too thought it must be an error - sorry


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Big Insect
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« Reply #10 on: 26 May 2019, 11:07:43 PM »

This is because it was felt that they were considered to be flying too high for most AA guns on table.

They are, however, subject to standard Air Superiority attacks - which also includes AA fire as well as fighter interdiction.

However, if you want to subject them to AA fire, please be my guest  Smiley but the rule stands as it is. It is not an error, but a deliberate decision.

Thanks
Mark
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AJ at the Bank
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« Reply #11 on: 26 May 2019, 11:46:00 PM »

Thanks for clarifying Scheduled still subject to Air Superiority (AA + fighter) attacks
I would not have thought about that one!
Best
A
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Risaldar Singh
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« Reply #12 on: 27 May 2019, 08:01:55 AM »

Three points:
1. Medium bomber attacks (He 111, Ju 88, B-25s, B-26s, A-20s, etc) which made up the overwhelming majority of ground support were made at low level, higher altitude bombing was only used against area targets (i.e. cities). Making all bombers immune to AA fire (since they can only carry out scheduled strikes) is a very broad brush indeed.
2. Just how many times were Flying Fortresses and Halifaxes used for ground attacks in WW2? And how many of these attacks were actually directed at frontline positions?
3. The point about "strategic bombing" might be valid if strategic bombers were considered at any point in the rules. They are not. The only AIR:BM units listed are medium bombers. See point 2 above.
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ianrs54
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« Reply #13 on: 27 May 2019, 08:28:42 AM »

Halifaxes - almost never, by 44 almost of bomber command was flying Lancasters. As to frequency from May to August 44 8th Airforce and Bomber Command were subordinated to the army for support. It was mostly on interdiction targets (rail and road junctions outside the battle area). However - Goodwood, Cobra, Caen, and Villers Bocage all involved heavy bombers. They were also used during the Walceran Battle.

IanS
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #14 on: 27 May 2019, 10:35:52 AM »

Ok, so there's an issue surrounding what AA can fire at what bombers at what height - keeping in mind we are talking about He111 and Ju88 types - I'm not convinced how effective HQ MGs could effect bombers flying at perhaps several 1000 feet.

But no AA vs scheduled air attacks!  Shocked

So a scheduled Me110 cannot be targeted by AA, but a requested one can be shot at. It's the same aircraft, same height, same AA, same payload, perhaps even the same target! That makes no sense at all. Do the AA stand by and ignore it?  Cry
« Last Edit: 27 May 2019, 10:46:28 AM by Dr Dave » Logged
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