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Author Topic: Generating Smoke (AFVs) vs Generate Smoke Ability plus Smoke ability & Artillery  (Read 843 times)
AJ at the Bank
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« on: 18 May 2019, 02:48:20 PM »

2 questions reference smoke for clarification please -

(1) Is the 'Generate Smoke' Ability (p79) redundant ...and replaced by Generating Smoke (AFVs) rule on p15 please?
Or are there perhaps non-AFV units that have this ability?

(2) 'Smoke' Ability (p79) :
(i) Are there any limitations on smoke firing (e.g. number of smoke rounds per game)? Or is this left to Army List rule restrictions (e.g. Sherman smoke max 2 rounds per game in American Lists)?
(ii) Guessing the reference in bold "see...Smoke - Page 15" is incorrect? Page 15 is about AFV Generating smoke on itself and not about firing smoke onto others
(iii) Are all references to Smoke ability for off-table Artillery incorrect / redundant? This given that Artillery Support rules on p49 state that ALL off-table artillary units (except Naval guns) may fire smoke (as a fire-zone attack)
(iv) Can smoke be fired at friendly units using this ability (noting that Artillery Support smoke cannot)?

Many thanks
Adam
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Big Insect
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« Reply #1 on: 18 May 2019, 09:59:40 PM »

Many thanks Adam

Let me check this.

One thing I can clarify is that you cannot fire Smoke at your own troops. They wont like it, not one bit as the smoke canisters can cause casualties (not that we want that built into the game!).

As to the number of rounds ... the Sherman limitation is a carry-over from BKCII (& is correct). We had a long debate about whether we should include a comprehensive list of all the AFVs that carried smoke rounds and how many rounds etc. but it just got far to complicated.

There are certain tanks - like some of the British Cruisers ( Cry Cry Cry) that only had Smoke ammunition and they are specifically noted in the lists.

On the non-AFV units that can generate smoke ... there you have me ... I think that the Russians had some sort of portable man-carried smoke generators towards the end of the war, which is why this is included, but no-doubt somebody (probably Ian?) can enlighten me.

Should P79 and P15 be aligned? Yes they should.
So to answer your questions (a very clear way of presenting them ... thank you):

(1) Is the 'Generate Smoke' Ability (p79) redundant ...and replaced by Generating Smoke (AFVs) rule on p15 please?
Or are there perhaps non-AFV units that have this ability?
> see above

(2) 'Smoke' Ability (p79) :
(i) Are there any limitations on smoke firing (e.g. number of smoke rounds per game)? Or is this left to Army List rule restrictions (e.g. Sherman smoke max 2 rounds per game in American Lists)?
> see above but generally no limits, unless the lists specify
(ii) Guessing the reference in bold "see...Smoke - Page 15" is incorrect? Page 15 is about AFV Generating smoke on itself and not about firing smoke onto others
> good spot
(iii) Are all references to Smoke ability for off-table Artillery incorrect / redundant? This given that Artillery Support rules on p49 state that ALL off-table artillary units (except Naval guns) may fire smoke (as a fire-zone attack)
> not sure what you mean?
(iv) Can smoke be fired at friendly units using this ability (noting that Artillery Support smoke cannot)?
> see above - short answer - no they cannot

Thanks
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AJ at the Bank
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« Reply #2 on: 18 May 2019, 10:25:11 PM »

Thanks Mark v helpful.

On point (iii) ..I mean for example -

per British Army List NW Europe ....off-table support ...some guns are listed as having the Smoke ability ....other ART-SG units are not.
Rules on p49 allow ALL off-table artillery to fire smoke as a fire-zone.

Therefore question is whether Smoke ability for all off-table artillery is redundant/incorrect?


Thanks again

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Big Insect
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« Reply #3 on: 18 May 2019, 11:00:22 PM »

Ah ... no not redundant - the British NW Europe list is a error - it is more likely that the lists will restrict the Smoke capability rather than confirm it.

So all off-table guns (except naval guns) have smoke - unless stated otherwise.

Thanks
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AJ at the Bank
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« Reply #4 on: 18 May 2019, 11:08:16 PM »

Ah ok ..an error - got you
…..so I've not really looked through all the army lists ….
but is that also true of the German Nebelwerfer off-table unit - where it has Smoke ability listed?

Adam
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Big Insect
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« Reply #5 on: 18 May 2019, 11:33:45 PM »

Neb's fired smoke - it was one of their specific roles.

But as I say - the intention with the off-table artillery is to state that it doesn't have smoke rather than it does.
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ianrs54
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« Reply #6 on: 19 May 2019, 09:51:15 AM »

Mark - smoke was 10% of issued rounds to 25pdr. Almost all British tanks has a smoke mortar, and it was added to Shermans (all of em). Means the battlefield gets terrible smoky. Your comment about casualties - most armies used White Phos smoke candles, the British didnt, but the tank smoke mortars did. It's reconed to be 1/3-1/2 as lethal as HE.
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AJ at the Bank
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« Reply #7 on: 19 May 2019, 11:57:16 AM »

BTW - I am loving the new smoke rule on p49 -
where if non-smoke artillery falls within a smoke screen - the affected area of smoke is now eliminated.

I now have a way to clear enemy smoke - if brought down near my Scheduled registered target points or visible enemy units!

 

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Big Insect
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« Reply #8 on: 19 May 2019, 06:37:52 PM »

Well spotted AJ - it was why you didnt mix smoke with standard rounds, but dropped you smoke at the end of a firing cycle,
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #9 on: 07 June 2019, 08:42:39 AM »

One point here...

I can now see a use for all my Cruiser and Matilda CS tanks!  Cheesy  While the others are using their 2pdrs the CS tank can fire smoke (and so "mask") Jerry.

-But how big is the smoke zone created? Just big enough to block the target's LOS? I'm pondering making some bases with smoke puffs on them.
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“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
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Big Insect
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« Reply #10 on: 07 June 2019, 10:16:43 AM »

Your call Dave

They should be big enough to completely mask the unit base or the model. If that helps.

Cheers
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #11 on: 07 June 2019, 11:21:24 AM »

Thanks for the fast response Mark.

I'll make up some bases and see how people receive it. Real CS tanks carried so much smoke to mark targets but the secondary effect must have been to mask them as well. Challenger 2 still carries its smoke for the same purpose. I assume that the range is the same for the AP stat line, so if it says AP: 2/80 it could read "Smk/80"?

The trick to deal with 88's in the desert might be to engage with opp fire smoke from the CS tanks and so mask the 88! I can see a game reason for the CS tanks now, but also the CS tanks might be targeted more as well  Sad
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“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #12 on: 07 June 2019, 07:20:34 PM »

Thanks for the fast response Mark.

I'll make up some bases and see how people receive it. Real CS tanks carried so much smoke to mark targets but the secondary effect must have been to mask them as well. Challenger 2 still carries its smoke for the same purpose. I assume that the range is the same for the AP stat line, so if it says AP: 2/80 it could read "Smk/80"?

The trick to deal with 88's in the desert might be to engage with opp fire smoke from the CS tanks and so mask the 88! I can see a game reason for the CS tanks now, but also the CS tanks might be targeted more as well  Sad

Actually, looking back I think this was already kinda there in the BKC2 optional rules. In BKCIV it looks like fire and definitely block los? In v2 it was fire and partially block on a score of 6 with the 2 dice (assuming 2/80) - and by partially block I mean reduce the fire dice back at you by only 1! So the change has gone from very hard, to very easy.
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“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
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« Reply #13 on: 08 June 2019, 10:11:13 PM »

The hit on a 6 for Smoke seemed illogical - if you can hit on a 4,5,6 with your AT why not hit on 4,5,6 for Smoke.

Also with the CS tanks (and this is has been debated elsewhere already) that is why they have a 0/40 stat for their AT shooting.
(& no there is no +1 d6 for shooting Smoke under half range).
So you use AT stats for shooting Smoke at a target.
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #14 on: 09 June 2019, 06:50:57 PM »

The hit on a 6 for Smoke seemed illogical - if you can hit on a 4,5,6 with your AT why not hit on 4,5,6 for Smoke.

Also with the CS tanks (and this is has been debated elsewhere already) that is why they have a 0/40 stat for their AT shooting.
(& no there is no +1 d6 for shooting Smoke under half range).
So you use AT stats for shooting Smoke at a target.

Yes, I think you're right about it being too hard for a minor effect in v2 - but this opens another (small) can of worms I'm afraid. A few of the CS tanks have NO AT capability at all - so they can't fire "smoke" as you describe. Also, with smoke you're not actually trying to "hit" the target with the smoke rnd - but simply get smoke intervening twixt shooter and target. Smoke rounds would have a similar flight profile to HE, not being a KE weapon.

So, I'm inclined to think 4+ to hit as you say, completely blocks los, but dice is the AP, not the AT stat line?





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“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
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