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Author Topic: France May 1940 - French v German 1,500 points Encounter list  (Read 578 times)
Big Insect
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« on: 16 May 2019, 12:13:04 PM »

Here you go folks - the first lists in this section:

French Army, France (May 1940) 1,500pts

Quantity   Troops   Arm   Move   AT   AP   CA   Hits   Save   Cost   Notes
1   CO (CV8)   CMD   60   -   3/30   -   6   6   90 [90]   
2   HQ (CV8)   CMD   40   -   2/30   -   4   6   60 [120]   
1   FAO (CV6)   CMD   40   -   -   -   4   6   15 [15]   
1   Recce Unit (Panhard)   REC   20   2/40   1/40   2   3   6   80 [80]   
6   Infantry Unit (Regulars)   INF   10   -   3/30   4   6   -   40 [240]   
1   Support Unit (MG, Hotchkiss)   INF   10   -   3/60   2   5   -   40 [40]   
1   Support Unit (ATG, 37mm)   INF   10   1/40   1/60   2   5   -   50 [50]   
1   Support Unit (Mortar, 81mm)   INF   10   3/100   3/100   2   5   -   70 [70]   
1   Tank Unit (FT-17, MG)   ARM   10   -   1/40   2   3   6   20 [20]   R
3   Tank Unit (Char B1 bis)   ARM   15   3/50   3/80   4   5   4   150 [450]   R
1   Anti-Tank Unit (ATG, 25mm Portee)   AT   20   2/40   -   2   3   -   35 [35]   
1   Air Defence Unit (20-25mm)   ART   10   1/30   1/40   2   4   -   40 [40]   
3   Artillery Unit (75mm)   ART   -   2   2   -   4   -   40 [120]   
3   Transport Unit (Trucks)   TRN   20   -   -   -   3   -   15 [45]   #1
6   Transport Unit (Half-Tracks)   TRN   20   -   -   -   3   -   15 [90]   #2

AT: Anti-Tank, AP: Anti-Personnel, R: Restricted, O: Open

Tactical Doctrine
   Normal tactical doctrine (20cm initiative distance; HQs may issue orders to units in other formations, but will be subject to a -1 command penalty)

Special Rules
   No air superiority
   Poor Combined-Arms: -1 command penalty when attempting to issue orders to infantry and armour (arms of service) as part of the same formation
   Penny-Packets: Tank units may not be massed together, but must be allocated to infantry formations at no more than three tank units per formation
Note 1. Transport Unit (Trucks)   
   May transport one infantry or infantry support unit, or may tow one gun   
Note 2. Transport Unit (Half-Tracks)   
   May transport one infantry or infantry support unit, or may tow one gun   
Summary
   Breakpoint 8
   1505 points spent of 1500 points available (1500 points selected)
   Add 5 to your casualty points at the end of the game

The Germans ...

German Army, France (May 1940)
Quantity   Troops   Arm   Move   AT   AP   CA   Hits   Save   Cost   Notes
1   CO (CV10)   CMD   60   -   3/30   -   6   6   150 [150]   
1   HQ (CV9)   CMD   40   -   2/30   -   4   6   90 [90]   
1   FAO (CV8)   CMD   40   -   -   -   4   6   45 [45]   
1   FAC (CV8)   CMD   40   -   -   -   4   6   45 [45]   
1   Recce Unit (kfz 13)   REC   20   -   1/40   2   3   6   55 [55]   Open Top
6   Infantry Unit (Heer)   INF   10   -   3/30   4   6   -   40 [240]   
1   Infantry Upgrade (Anti-Tank Rifle)   INF   -   1/20   -   -   -   -   10 [10]   
1   Support Unit (MG, MG-34/42)   INF   10   -   3/60   2   5   -   40 [40]   
2   Support Unit (ATG, 37mm, Pak-35/36)   INF   10   2/40   1/60   2   5   -   60 [120]   
6   Panzer Unit (Pzkpfw II)   ARM   20   1/30   1/60   2   3   6   60 [360]   
1   Assault Gun Unit (StuG-III, 75mm kurz)   ARM   20   2/60   3/80   3   4   5   105 [105]   #1 R
3   Artillery Unit (105mm, le.FH-18)   ART   -   3   3   -   3   -   45 [135]   
1   Dive Bomber Unit (Ju-87B Stuka)   AIR   -   4   4   -   3   -   60 [60]   
3   Transport Unit (Trucks)   TRN   20   -   -   -   3   -   15 [45]   #2
AT: Anti-Tank, AP: Anti-Personnel, R: Restricted, O: Open

Tactical Doctrine
   Flexible tactical doctrine (25cm initiative distance; HQs may issue orders to units in other formations without penalty)

Special Rules
   Full air superiority
   Infiltration: +1 to command value for flank deployment
Note 1. Assault Gun Unit (StuG-III, 75mm kurz)   
   No Machine Guns: No bonus for firing at soft-targets   
Note 2. Transport Unit (Trucks)   
   May transport one infantry or infantry support unit, or may tow one gun   

Summary
   Breakpoint 7
   1500 points spent of 1500 points available (1500 points selected)

This is all a bit 'clumsy - apologies - I'll work out how I embed images of the lists as that would make them a lot easier to visualize.

Observations about the lists and the way the armies play:
The Germans are classic combined arms and the Stuka packs a real punch. The 'swarm' of PzIIs can swamp the French AFVs but are vulnerable if the Char-B's get them in their targets.

I am not 100% convinced that the mobility provided by the Trucks for the French Infantry is worth the vulnerability.

The Char-Bs are tough but need support, especially from the French AA and Portee. I'd also consider having the French 75ib guns on-table, despite the extra cost.

Any thoughts from others?

Cheers
Mark


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Steve J
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« Reply #1 on: 16 May 2019, 02:47:23 PM »

I'd ditch the trucks for the French and only have tows for the ATGs, as you are likely to be out manouevered by the Germans and don't want to be caught in the transports. I's also add another MG to the Germans and ditch something else. Just my two penn'th.
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Risaldar Singh
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« Reply #2 on: 16 May 2019, 02:51:28 PM »

Hummm... penny packets no longer applies in BKC IV...  Wink
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Big Insect
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« Reply #3 on: 16 May 2019, 03:39:24 PM »

The French didn't always operate in Penny Packets - it's a myth.

There are a couple of large tank battles in 1940 where you get massed French tanks operating independently of their infantry.

Plus, in this list with only 4 tanks it wouldn't have applied anyway  Cheesy
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fsn
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« Reply #4 on: 16 May 2019, 05:19:36 PM »

I'd ditch the trucks for the French and only have tows for the ATGs, as you are likely to be out manouevered by the Germans and don't want to be caught in the transports. I's also add another MG to the Germans and ditch something else. Just my two penn'th.
I'd ditch the FT17 in favour of H35 or H39.

I do like the StuG/PzII combo as opposed to the PzIII/PzIV.
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Lord Oik of Runcorn
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Risaldar Singh
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« Reply #5 on: 17 May 2019, 09:47:49 AM »

The French didn't always operate in Penny Packets - it's a myth.

There are a couple of large tank battles in 1940 where you get massed French tanks operating independently of their infantry.

Plus, in this list with only 4 tanks it wouldn't have applied anyway  Cheesy
I know there were shed loads of multi-battalion armoured battles with nothing resembling the situation covered by the silly Penny Packet rule. I only mentioned it because it appears as a Special Rule for your French army above when it should no longer be there.

It would have applied to your list as the number of tanks fielded was irrelevant to this rule: "Tank units may not be massed together, but must be allocated to infantry formations at no more than three tank units per formation".  Cheesy

BTW, you can't have 2 CV8 HQs in a 1500 point force as the limit is "1 [3]" so 1 per full 1000 points and 3 total.
 
Some comments:
- In my experience, playing a French army with nearly the same breakpoint as a German one is very, very brave choice.
- I would definitely lose the Panhard armoured car in favour of more bodies (two platoons of inf or one inf, one MG or points towards more tanks).
- Switching all inf to conscripts can also be an option to free up points for a larger force.
- Artillery is the French Stuka: I always take all I can.
- Replace the lousy 37mm AT gun (which didn't exist, though there was a 37mm infantry gun which should have the same stats as the FT-17's gun) by the excellent 47mm AT gun for the same price.
- Replace portee 25mm AT guns with towed 25mm ATG and trucks (portees are very vulnerable).
- Ditch the FT-17, it is a liability: it is slower than all your other vehicles so difficult to coordinate and survivability is low.
- D2s or S35s make a very cost-effective alternative to the B1s. If you replace the B1s, FT and Panhard with these, you can field 7 of them which will come as a rude shock to your opponent. Tanks also make better anti-tank defences than ATGs so there is some room to move some additional points.
- Air defences: definitely important to field some but the ugly truth is that there is something way better than a 20mm gun with a truck at 55 points. 30 points buys you a self-propelled AA gun with a little less range but twice the firepower, which, in addition, is impervious to infantry or tank fire. It is called a CV7 HQ (AA: 2/30). This is something that should definitely be eliminated/reduced for early-war games at least and possibly throughout the conflict.
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Big Insect
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« Reply #6 on: 18 May 2019, 09:13:16 AM »

You are of course correct Risaldar  Smiley as I have used the BKCII on-line list calculator to quickly put up an example list.

Mark
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Risaldar Singh
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« Reply #7 on: 18 May 2019, 11:49:53 AM »

Speaking of the BKCII on-line list calculator, it often lets slip unit selections that are above the maximum allowed (command and artillery mostly). Probably something to look into when it is updated for the new version.
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Big Insect
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« Reply #8 on: 18 May 2019, 11:15:10 PM »

Yes ... thanks ... the whole on-line list calculator 'project' is underway and is already throwing up quite a few questions that need answers.

The points system is one of these as there are some oddities in the way the BKCI / BKCII annd now BKCIV points have come out. Nothing dramatic, except for some of the Armoured Cars (which has already been highlighted in a previous thread).

Cheers
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Big Insect
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« Reply #9 on: 09 June 2019, 09:00:31 PM »

Who's got a good very early French 1940's list they can post up please?

I'd like to consider what to add to my growing collection

Many thanks

Mark
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fred.
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« Reply #10 on: 09 June 2019, 09:58:02 PM »

Im not sure there is a good early French list...

At the bottom of this web page of mine there are listings of the various battalions the French used http://www.kerynne.com/games/French.html

I have built my forces around the DLM, the mix of Somua and Dragoons Porte are good, the H35s rather less so.
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« Reply #11 on: 10 June 2019, 06:45:16 PM »

Risaldar, you suggest a list with D2s . As I have some of them could you please put up a list on the basis that you describe?
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