RECCE

[Jimbo94]

Hi All
In my practice run last night I advanced a 222 towards Russian infantry in a village.
I got to 8cms from them

In the next initiative phase I attempted to communicate with the Infantry Battalion HQ to improve his CV by +1
After going through the factors I calculated I needed a 6 for success  (low profile troops in buildings?)
Is that correct?
And what if I had been able to advance to 5cm, I would have spotted the infantry as per normal visibility rules but for recce communication I still need a six?

Big risk for the Recce unit for only a 1 in 6 chance of success

Am I doing it correctly
Thanks

[Dr Dave]

As I read it on page 30 in the second table it says you'll need a 6: "unit is in full cover = 6", and the modifiers are Distance to target is 0-20 cm = -1 and Target is infantry = +1, so they cancel out leaving it at a 6.

Hence, yes. You needed a 6 as I see it even if you get within 5 cm, but recce cannot move within 5 cm of an enemy unit (p29, third paragraph).

It is worth noting that a non-recce unit would have spotted them automatically within 10 cm (concealed troops on p15).

In BKCii you'd have needed a 2+ as soon as you got within 20 cm (a roll of 1 always fails). You could have tried at ranges up to 60 cm (needing a 6 for 50 - 60 cm). I know people couldn't get their heads around this since how can recce report on things that they cannot see? The simple truth is that they can't. But I rationalised this as them reporting: "no enemy in sight – but they could be in the buildings. There are no enemy troops located in the open outside the village". Information is information. Recce doesn't just report where the enemy is, they also report where the enemy is not!

So in your example if the recce unit was accompanied by a non-recce unit then the latter could have fired at them when within 10 cm – presumably whilst the recce unit was wondering what they were firing at?

[Cross698]

Troops in buildings or hard cover 6, -1 within 0-20cm = 5, but as you say +1 low profile, so back to 6 and you had to be this close to get the -1, as any roll of greater than 6 cannot spot at any range, which seems a bit steep in my opinion.

Under the old V2 you would have needed 2+ Perhaps too easy?

Perhaps if added to the original concept of low profile +1, +1 Partial cover, +2 target is dug in or in hard cover then a roll of 5+ required, still hard, but better than 6

[Big Insect]

Yes - pretty much Jimbo

If the target is in hard cover you need a basic of a 6 to spot it
As you are 0-20cm from the target so that's a -1
As the target is Infantry it is Low Profile so that adds a +1

(NB: the Infantry, Infantry Support - Low Profile designation doesn't count if they are also Dug-in, as it has a duplicate effect) see Page 76 - Special characteristics - no combination of abilities can create a situation where a unit cannot be targeted (so Dug-in and Low-profile cancel each other out effectively).

Interesting idea about the 5cm visibility - you cannot get any closer of course (no units may voluntarily move within 5cm of an enemy unit) but the idea of another -1 (so effectively -2) for 5-10cm seems reasonable. Your Recce unit has snuck up pretty close!!!

It's always a difficult one this, as we have previously played a rule that unless Infantry or Infantry Support that are dug-in in a BUA actually do something (move or fire) they are all but invisible to an opponent.

[Dr Dave]

I think in the example you give recce is relatively futile and dangerous. If it was a dug in AT gun they've have been an easy target.

The fact that any non recce within 20 cm of the enemy can auto spot and then fire means I'd have been inclined to take a non recce unit up and shoot. Preferably lots of them. In game terms it would be wiser to simply attack without the points wasted on a relatively useless recce unit.  

In an attack defence game, if the enemy chooses solid defences and deploys in cover, any recce unit is relatively pointless.

[Jimbo94]

Thanks for the replies
The 222 could get close as I figured as in July 41 Russians have no ATR there wasn't much risk unless the Russians assaulted out of the buildings

I'm not a rule writer , although I have read many sets as I'm sure we all can imagine,  but I would guess to write enough clear rules to fully model what Recce does would be incredibly difficult.
They need special movement, firing, spotting, communication rules plus probably additional special rules and special abilities.

However as most of what BKIV does , and any other rule set for that matter, is quite an abstraction then it should be possible to come up with such an abstraction that makes RECCE useful/worth the points and deployed as per history and which can be rationalised along the lines Dave has explained above.

In the earlier version the RECCE would be able to improve the CV by +1 with distance to enemy being the only real factor, was harder to hit as a target and not subject to normal command rules.
What I always thought this was modelling was that the RECCE was in communication with the HQ explaining as much about where things weren't as where they were, which would allow units to move more freely as they approached the enemy etc.
So you don't have to necessarily SEE the enemy in the buildings ahead but you are confirming there may be some there , Ive seen some limited movement, there is nothing in the fields Ive just driven through etc.

However in the old rules I would sometimes keep the recce close to the HQ and so say at 40cms it gave a 50% chance of increasing the CV of HQ by 1 which also wasn't that historical!!

[Dr Dave]

However in the old rules I would sometimes keep the recce close to the HQ and so say at 40cms it gave a 50% chance of increasing the CV of HQ by 1 which also wasn't that historical!!

Even back in BKCii we always allowed recce to communicate with any HQ / command unit (as v4 does) not simply the nearest. The "nearest" option meant that they first did a quick poll to find out who was closest before getting onto the radio!  

[Jimbo94]

One other thing about my game tonight is that the Russians have a BA10 recce

Now as the Russians have CV of 7 in most cases the ability to have that increased by +1 by RECCE (no chance they will get the +1 for RIGID DOCTRINE all doing the same action!) is quite useful , never mind the fact that the BA10 has the best ATG on the board!!

The Germans will be advancing in the open for some of the time and the BA10 will have a better chance of communicating than the 222 had (5 or 6 on infantry 4,5,6 armour?)

[Dr Dave]

Can anyone rationalise the situation I outlined that Jimbo94 alluded to:


A recce unit within 10 cm of enemy infantry in a BUA needs to roll a 6 to spot the infantry and communicate with a command unit, i.e. it's very unlikely to accomplish this.

BUT

Any non-recce within 10 cm of the same enemy infantry in the BUA will automatically spot and can then fire at the same enemy.

[Jimbo94]

Can anyone rationalise the situation I outlined that Jimbo94 alluded to:


A recce unit within 10 cm of enemy infantry in a BUA needs to roll a 6 to spot the infantry and communicate with a command unit, i.e. it's very unlikely to accomplish this.

BUT

Any non-recce within 10 cm of the same enemy infantry in the BUA will automatically spot and can then fire at the same enemy.

And if their HQ is within 20cm call down mortar fire for mortars who can't see the target directly, presumably by communicating with them

[Big Insect]

There is a difference between a Recce action and an ordinary unit action.
The ordinary unit is not adding a +1 to the command value of a Commander. That +1 on a CV is a significant advantage in game play terms.


Also LoS into or through a BAU (as it is High Area Terrain) is restricted to 5 cm for low profile troops - so a low profile non-Recce unit has to be literally on-top of the enemy to be able to spot them. This is increased to 10cm if both units have Average profiles or the unit in the BAU is Average profile. So, Infantry to Infantry is 5cm.

I think you are taking these mechanisms far to literally. The idea that just because a Recce unit is at 10cm from a target might mean they see the enemy but communicating back to their Command might be equally difficult - as stated previously - not all Recce has radios and even if they do they do not want to be heard talking into them that close to the enemy. Even if they do spot the enemy unit, there are a multitude of reasons why a communication might not make it back to the command structure or even if it does make it back, the commanders might have other priorities and so ignore an important signal. All that is reflected in the 6 required to achieve a spot.

There is a general Commander series rules 'concept' which is that nothing is 100% certain ... so just as only if an FAO/FAC rolls a command bonus (double 1) are they guaranteed an on target artillery/air strike ... it's part of the principles of the game mechanics.

Cheers
Mark

[Risaldar Singh]

The old rules worked perfectly well as long as it was understood that recce units were markers indicating your information gathering effort (and its effect on your units' effectiveness) rather than some guys with binoculars trying to spot something you could see on the table anyway.

Now, having recce units that are actually worse at spotting the enemy than regular units is just a new way to spell "broken".  

[Big Insect]

In the example of the Mortars - if the unit 'acquiring' the enemy in the BUA is an Infantry unit and the target enemy is also Infantry unit, it must be within 5cm to do so.
Then the HQ must pass a successful command roll to order the mortars to shoot at the enemy infantry in the BUA.
Then the Mortars need a +6 to hit the unit as it is in the BUA.

All is not as easy as it first looks folks  

[Big Insect]

I disagree Risaldar

Recce are no worse at spotting enemy units than other unit - it's the whole concept of Recce that seems to be being misunderstood here.
The enemy AFV that can 'see' an enemy unit automatically at 10cm from the BUA it is in, is quite possibly taking a punt at the fact that it saw some movement or at least thought it did.
Recce needs to be much more sure of the information it is passing back.
I'd argue that at the real life equivalent of 10cm on a battlefield - I'd defy anybody spot infantry dug-in and not shooting back from within a town, village etc. Especially as the unist inside the BAU can also see the enemy approaching them.

The old Recce rules had flaws - for example it was far too easy to add a +1 to a Commander, any Commander, no matter how far away they were from the Recce or the target.
The idea that a Recce unit has a choice as to which commander it adds =1 to is highly unrealistic I'd suggest.

The new rules make it less easy and IMHO more realistic.

[Jimbo94]

It comes down to
1 What are you trying to model
AND
2 The level of abstraction you are prepared to accept.

Going back to my original example
The 222 was 10cm in front of the infantry battalion and moved 20cms forward
It didn't see anything as it went along and was not shot at by anything.
It then failed to spot the infantry in the buildings

it could be said that the infantry, still awaiting orders to move towards the village will be able to do so slightly more freely because they will not be as worried about dug in troops being 5cm  in front of them for the next couple of moves.
So the Recce has done its job whether it spots the infantry in the village or not.
I.e. the approach to the target appears clear although as yet the target itself could be defended or not

Hence a general roll to give a chance of +1 rather than one specifically about spotting specific units which are all but impossible to spot seems a fair level of abstraction to me.
And it being based on proximity to enemy encourages the recce to be put out in front of the main battle line as it was used historically

I agree its difficult to write rules that's why I've not been able to do it very well but have seemed to able to pick problems in other peoples efforts!!

Regards