Why is artillery barrage half as effective as before?

Started by Risaldar Singh, 11 May 2019, 11:29:09 AM

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fred.

Quote from: Cross698 on 14 May 2019, 08:52:03 PM
but eventually clarified in v2 was that each concentration should still each roll for deviation seperately.

I didn't know that.

It sounds really fiddly, as if you have 3 guns firing you are likely to end up with some units under 3 templates, some under 2 and plenty under 1.

I can see the reason to cap the number of dice for a concentration. After a certain point more shells don't really help. You are either dead from the early stuff, or hidden in good cover. WWI was a very good example of this, where barrages went from very long, to much shorter.

I'm not really sure what the new rules for barrages do, as noted above the typical result is to go from 3 dice to 2 dice, which is fairly minor. All at the cost of some awkward maths if you are firing a mix of guns.
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Dr Dave

We've never played it that way. But we do arty differently. The SP guns being easier to call in since bkc1 is a fantasy that Pete acknowledged was only there to make SP different to towed arty. So we ignore that modifier completely.

It's worth noting that arty doesn't get more accurate for consecutive turns of requested firing at the same stationary target / point. I've always thought that a real oddity. The FAO can't correct fire. All it takes is -1 deviation dice per consecutive turn down to a minimum of 1.

Risaldar Singh

Never played it that way either. It's always been one fire mission, one request roll, one deviation roll (if applicable).

Dr Dave

Yes, I've never seen any logic in the SP argument at all. Even Pete conceded it was nonsense.

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Particularly since the Grimsby group apply it to MRL's
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Dr Dave

Quote from: ianrs54 on 15 May 2019, 09:45:14 AM
Particularly since the Grimsby group apply it to MRL's

;D really? They need to watch the survey team and met teams required for a set up.

It seems so odd that the rules have always assumed that all arty is in a state of perpetual motion and never ready to fire. Even if they do fire the rules then assume that they up sticks and start moving again!

Risaldar Singh

Quote from: Dr Dave on 15 May 2019, 10:34:24 AM
It seems so odd that the rules have always assumed that all arty is in a state of perpetual motion and never ready to fire. Even if they do fire the rules then assume that they up sticks and start moving again!
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Dr Dave

I guess the only real difference is that SP arty is invariably armoured, but open topped.

In How's book "Hill 112" one of the Infantry chaps describes walking back to the rear and passing fields full of 25 pdrs deployed and ready.

I can see the SP modifier being of some merit in a pursuit type game where your forces are strung out or moving up, but only until the FAO's request is successful, after that the guns are in position and ready.

Cross698

Personally SP should only count against counter artillery in my opinion - more difficult to hit.

Deviation
http://www.blitzkrieg-commander.com/Content/Forum/Topic.aspx?CategoryID=2&ForumID=5&TopicID=9921&ForumPage=1
and
http://www.blitzkrieg-commander.com/Content/Forum/Topic.aspx?CategoryID=2&ForumID=58&TopicID=14155&ForumPage=1

If you have plenty of transparent 20cm templates it isn't really a problem - we put a marker where the deviation points are and then if the unit is 50% under the template and put that number of dice next to the unit, then check out the next template and if the same units fall under this then place additional dice next to the unit and so on. So some units may well have 3 dice against it, some 6 or even 9, depending on calibre. We find it works and in most cases apart from smoke, players use concentrations rather than barrages, as the effect is reduced, hence my surprise that barrages have been made less effective and concentrations remain the same!

If you don't deviate multiple concentrations, then what is the point of barrages?
Also rockets always deviate in v2 even for scheduled 3D6.
Deviation in V4 does not clarify that each concentration is deviated seperately and only states that rockets are inaccurate, so rolls double the deviation dice.
:-

Dr Dave

Quote from: Cross698 on 15 May 2019, 12:36:24 PM
If you don't deviate multiple concentrations, then what is the point of barrages?

Not sure what you're getting at.

A concentration of three batteries: we play as 3 templates on top of each other so triple the number of single battery attacks, but they all deviate together.

A barrage is three templates side by side. So only the single battery attacks in each template.

That's how we've always done it.

Cross698

Not according to Pete - each concentration deviates seperately, so roll deviation from the FAO to the target for each battery, unless you roll a double 1 of course.

Big Insect

All good stuff chaps

I'll take a look at the Barrage rules - my initial thinking was that a Barrage was far too cost effective.

In BKCII - page 27 (top) it states:
Artillery Barrage
An Artillery barrage covers a much larger area than a concentration. the fire-zone measures 20cm wide per artillery unit by 20cm deep. This fire-zone should be centred on the hit point with the longest side place parallel to your own table base line. Total the attacks of all units firing, then divide by the number of units, rounding up.

As the FAO ordering the Barrage can bring down any number of artillery units in a barrage (subject to the -1 per 3 guns command penalty), the barrage can become devastating if enough off-guns are added to the barrage. They in-effect almost become large concentrations.

Personally, I don't have a mental picture of WW2 as a massed artillery game - unlike WW1 (1916-18).

Also - creeping barrages are treated like other barrages - so are no better or worse.

Anyway, I've taken on the feedback and will look at this in the errata.
NB: the SP gun thing is interesting - I can see a minus associated with counter battery, but the +1 for an order has also mystified me ... but it's a longstanding mechanism &(believe it or not) I have tried not to tinker with too many of those  ;)

Cheers
Mark
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Dr Dave

In WW2 25% of the British army were gunners. Most armies were at that level or close to it.  There is masses artillery, but a lot more vehicles to bring manoeuvre back to the countryside as well as craters!

Risaldar Singh

Quote from: Big Insect on 15 May 2019, 02:56:40 PM
All good stuff chaps

I'll take a look at the Barrage rules - my initial thinking was that a Barrage was far too cost effective.

In BKCII - page 27 (top) it states:
Artillery Barrage
An Artillery barrage covers a much larger area than a concentration. the fire-zone measures 20cm wide per artillery unit by 20cm deep. This fire-zone should be centred on the hit point with the longest side place parallel to your own table base line. Total the attacks of all units firing, then divide by the number of units, rounding up.

As the FAO ordering the Barrage can bring down any number of artillery units in a barrage (subject to the -1 per 3 guns command penalty), the barrage can become devastating if enough off-guns are added to the barrage. They in-effect almost become large concentrations.

Personally, I don't have a mental picture of WW2 as a massed artillery game - unlike WW1 (1916-18).

Also - creeping barrages are treated like other barrages - so are no better or worse.

Anyway, I've taken on the feedback and will look at this in the errata.
NB: the SP gun thing is interesting - I can see a minus associated with counter battery, but the +1 for an order has also mystified me ... but it's a longstanding mechanism &(believe it or not) I have tried not to tinker with too many of those  ;)

Cheers
Mark


No, a barrage can never be as lethal as a concentration, no matter how many batteries join in. You are missing the key part of the rules: divide the aum of attacks by the number of firing units. Again, adding more batteries only increases the area covered.

Two batteries with 3 attacks each would inflict 3 attacks on each target within two-template zone, 12 batteries would inflict the same 3 attacks in a 12-template wide zone.

Dr Dave

In bkc v4 it is halved then rounded up, so its 2 attacks, not 3 for a Barrage.

Most historical barrages will never do more than 2 attacks. Barrages were kak, and are now are even kakker. Not a word I know. Somewhere out there is an artillery snowflake who is very relieved at this new rule.