Firing to suppress

[Cross698]

A unit that does NOT have an AT or AP value may fire at the hard or soft target but it can only suppress it.

Page 35 calculating firing
so INF firing 3/30 at an enclosed tank are hitting in the open on 4+ with 3 dice. The unit gets its save and any that are not are rolled for suppression on 4+. It seems a little too easy, especially if combined with other units and infantry are dug in. What was the thought around this?

In v3 it suggested it was possible at 20cm to hit tanks on 6, exposed 5+, save then suppressed on a 6, which seems more appropriate.

thanks
Andy

   

[fred.]

We found very similar results in our first game.

I had 3 tankettes that were able to generate 6 AP shooting dice per order, firing these at a PzII was guaranteed suppression. Unfortunately due to my poor command rolls, I wasn't able to try to break it by firing repeatedly and getting it to fall back more than 10cm.

All feels a bit overpowered.

On the other hand in BKC 1 I do remember lots of pointless rolling try to get a 6 to hit followed by a 6 to suppress with small arms fire. Which just seemed to waste time, while the attacker hoped for a good dice roll.

[Cross698]

I know that the aim is to simplify as much as possible. As part of my DDay game, I am also doing the Orne Bridges + Ranville, so they have limited IATW, no mortars, no HMG and at best 1 ATG (6 pounder), so wanted them to be able to suppress with AP, but may have to tweak it a little. If artillery and Mortars using indirect fire are only hitting on a 6, why should small arms be any better? Of course they have CA (Gammon Bombs etc), but unless hitting a flank, they will suffer i'm sure. I have already played Howard's glider drop and although Ranville and the bridge (Avro) have been taken, units failed to get into Benouville! So should be an intersting weekend game 

[Dr Dave]

I asked about suppressive fire, realising it was now 3x more effective. Mark (Big Insect) replied:

But remember that a unit uses its normal save value against both ordinary and suppression fire, so the big impact is against the more vulnerable units. Also, some of the 'heavier' unist (AFVs especially) will have Special Characteristics that can negate the effects of suppressive fire.

I was looking for a balance between the BKCII near invulnerability of most armour to small arms or * fire to suppress them and BKCI where it was (IMHO) over important. Time will tell whether I have this balance right (or not).

I do however like the CWC and FWC approach and will be sticking with that for CWCII and FWCII.

Cheers
Mark

[Cross698]

Must have missed that one!
Not sure what special abilities I can see that will benefil - "Fierce" or "low profile".
Still think it has become too easy and the concept in v3 perhaps too hard.

I will probably in my weekend game use hit in the terrain characteristics, use the save and then suppress on a 6 only.

So in the open 50% per D6 of a hit, save and then 1in 6 chance to suppress. Most of the accounts i have read regarding infantry v armour are factored into the CA stats.

thanks
Andy

[fred.]

I'm not sure that the save is too relevant, especially in early war were there are lots of 6 saves.

I'm incline to go for only suppress on a 6

[Big Insect]

Generally the suppression based on the to Hit value is a simple mechanism - one that most people can keep easily in their heads.
CWC and FWC have a different method, which is based more on the experience of the unit taking the hit and also its profile (not that there are any Massive units in BKC or CWC).

Its a balance. As stated previously and based on talking to some ex-tankers. If your tank starts to be spattered by a mass of small arms fire you are going to at the very least take some form of action to establish who it is and why you are being targeted. Especially as it was not uncommon for the bow MGs on certain tanks to be used to range the main armourment, so you didnt know what was coming next.

There are a number of 'house rules' approaches to playing suppression. I know of one group that ignores all small arms fire on all AFVs. So anything with only an AP stat is completely ignored. It's an acceptable way of playing. But the intention in BKCIV was to try to rederess the balance between complete invulnerablity to AP weapons.

One thing that I've had no comment on is the change to over 100mm mortars which will inflict AT casualties on AFVs now. Hitting pretty much anything from on top with a 100mm mortar bomb will do some serious damage, likewise if it scores a near miss.

Cheers
Mark

[Cross698]

I like the flexibility of the rules and to add or take what you want, but as it stands in the rules I feel it would be too easy to suppress tanks with AP fire. I accept that the tank crew would need to take action, but if suppressed what action, as they cannot do anything. I personally prefer to allow a chance to suppress, but it is quite easy to do so. If you mass your small arms onto an AFV and suppress it and then get another order and again it suffers unsaved hits (especially those AFV with a 6 save), then it is likely to fall back further than 10 and be knocked out.

I will try it out, but suspect that those at y club will be unhappy as it stands.

thanks.

[Jimbo94]

Suppressing a tank with small arms in the real world might have something to do with the weight of fire hitting it  and / or a lucky hit doing some kind of actual damage

Germans in 1940 and French in 1940 firing their rifles would have about the same chance, quality of the firer would be largely irrelevant where as the experience of the crew of the tank being fired upon would be likely to be a more significant factor.

So I would think that the morale of the crew should be the overriding factor

Whatever the rules it should be a fairly rare and quite random event.

[Dr Dave]

Suppressing a tank with small arms in the real world might have something to do with the weight of fire hitting it  and / or a lucky hit doing some kind of actual damage

I knew a veteran, now sadly passed away, but his platoon couldn't find the PIAT (or the chap with it wasn't going to volunteer!) but they rained small arms fire onto what he was vehement were 2x Tigers on the Island in late 44. Both commanders received head shots. In effect that's a KO for game purposes?

[Jimbo94]

The head shots on the tank commanders example I think confirms it should be rare and based on luck

I have not read enough to know the answer to the following question but given the scale of the game

Q How many instances are there of tank platoons being chased away by infantry with only rifles, LMG's etc and of those how many of these occurred when the said tanks were supported by their own infantry?

If the answer is very often then the current rules as written are correct

[Dr Dave]

IIRC Back in the days of BKC1 it was roll normal number of dice to hit; 6's hit; targets then rolled normal saves; then supress on a 6 - so yes.. rare.

In our group we adopted the CWC suppression optional rule based on morale: elite suppressed on a 6, normal 5+, poor 4+

[Orcs]

I seem to remember reading that in the Arab Israeli war tank commanders suffered from about 10% casualties. From Shrapnel and small arms.

[Dr Dave]

I seem to remember reading that in the Arab Israeli war tank commanders suffered from about 10% casualties. From Shrapnel and small arms.

Probably the Israelis did. Certainly in 73 the Syrians followed the Russian doctrine and fought buttoned up. The Israelis on the Golan in 73 claim only 1 Centurion KO'd by artillery fire - that's a proper KO, not a temporary disabling.

[Cross698]

One thing that I've had no comment on is the change to over 100mm mortars which will inflict AT casualties on AFVs now. Hitting pretty much anything from on top with a 100mm mortar bomb will do some serious damage, likewise if it scores a near miss.

Cheers
Mark

Mark,
Could you clarify this statement? in v2 Mortars could cause AT Hits, the only difference was if fired indirectly they Hit on 6s for enclosed AFVs and 5 against open or exposed AFVs.
Looking at the lists in v4 of Mortars over 100mm, in particular the Russians the "asterix" is prominent in all the mortars over 100mm, except the Russian 280mm, perhaps these should have been taken out, as i thought this denoted suppression for mortars rather than hits?

Also "indirect Fire" is mentioned for Mortars, Infantry Guns and on table support firing on the visibility of another unit and command within 20cm (same as v2), however what are they hitting on, the cover they are in? Off table artillery and Air hit AFVs on 6 and 5 like in v2, but I cannot see (unless I failed my RECCE and cannot see the wood for the trees!) a to hit ? We are missing a summary as in page 141 of v2 which gives the to hit for all indirect fire? Please can you clarify?  Thanks