Opportunity Fire and Close Assault

[Cross698]

I have posted this several times but not had a response, but this does need clarification.

Opportunity Fire Page 37 is defined as per v2 in that a unit may do so in response to a move or shoot order (except mortars which is fire only) once in your opponent's Command Phase. A unit using OPP FIRE cannot use Initiative in their active turn and will be at -1 in the Command Phase.

Page 20 Initiative Phase (Inactive Player) states that " A unit under assault, and also any unit within 10cm of a unit under assault, may open fire on the assaulting enemy unit. provided they are unsuppressed and have LOF to the enemy unit at any point during the enemy's assault move."

"Units may use opportunity fire against each assaulting and supporting unit" In v2 this was Response Fire.

In the Close Assault example the inactive player uses Opportunity fire against the assaulting unit.

Page 40 -  under Opportunity Fire it confirms that a unit may open fire at the assaulting and supporting units, it then says "However, no unit may use Opportunity Fire whilst making an assault" CONFUSION - you only use OPP FIRE in your opponent's Command Phase anyway.

I suspect OPP FIRE has been used instead of Response Fire? If so needs to be clarified, as a unit can only use Opportunity Fire ONCE in the active players Command Phase.

If it is CORRECT, then if a unit is assaulted in the Initiative or Command Phase suggests that the unit can only fire once, if indeed this is Opportunity rather than Response Fire, so if the unit or supporting unit is then assaulted again later and on a succesful command roll, then the unit cannot fire???

Would appreciate clarification!

Thanks
 

[Dr Dave]

Not the writer - just a fellow player I'm afraid. We house rule this I think. Basically we allow fire to take place regardless of what has happened.

It's similar to AA fire as we see it. If a FAC calls up a plane then all the AA can fire at it. If he then called another plane in a separate request then all the AA can fire again. BUT If he called up both together (and got the -1 penalty for doing so) the AA fires only once and is split (assuming >1 AA unit) across the planes - in effect the FAC is swamping the AA defences - just like the ideal in reality.

So in your CA example if a unit is assaulted in initiative the assaulted unit could fire. Then if a second assault was ordered the assaulted unit could fire again, and again if a third assault was ordered, and so on. We view this as punishing the attacker for not massing his three assaults in a single effort. The alternative of allowing the defender to fire only once might seem to reward a player for launching uncoordinated attacks one after the other.

My 2p.

[Cross698]

Thanks for your 2p 

Yes I think so, just that the use of "opportunity fire" is misleading if wrong. It makes sense that they can fire again in "Response" to a Close Assault as in v2. Having only played v2 i was confused, as are others I know who now have v4 and if I had only picked up v4 as a "new" player i think I would only allow the one time firing in the turn, hence I think it needs clarification.

Regarding your example about Anti-Aircraft Fire, in v4 it does not use the term "opportunity Fire", so yes it could continue to fire more than once if more aircraft were called in. I notice the difference in v4 that AA should be split as equally as possible, slightly different to v2.

thanks
Andy 

[Dr Dave]

Agreed - AA and close assaults are very different examples. But in v1, v2 and v4 it rewards massing, not squandering - hence we treat CA under the same ethos. But you're right, it's not clear and I could be way off the mark.

[Cross698]

Yes agree.

[Big Insect]

You are correct in that Opportunity Fire has been used erroneously instead of Response Fire.

The situation with Assaults in the Initiative Phase is complex - in fact - all Assaults with multiple support units is complex full stop. My comments are outlined below against you specific questions:

Opportunity Fire Page 37 is defined as per v2 in that a unit may do so in response to a move or shoot order (except mortars which is fire only) once in your opponent's Command Phase. A unit using OPP FIRE cannot use Initiative in their active turn and will be at -1 in the Command Phase.

Page 20 Initiative Phase (Inactive Player) states that " A unit under assault, and also any unit within 10cm of a unit under assault, may open fire on the assaulting enemy unit. provided they are unsuppressed and have LOF to the enemy unit at any point during the enemy's assault move."

"Units may use opportunity fire against each assaulting and supporting unit" In v2 this was Response Fire.

In the Close Assault example the inactive player uses Opportunity fire against the assaulting unit. (this is an error - it should be Response Fire)

Page 40 -  under Opportunity Fire it confirms that a unit may open fire at the assaulting and supporting units, it then says "However, no unit may use Opportunity Fire whilst making an assault" CONFUSION - you only use OPP FIRE in your opponent's Command Phase anyway. (Correct - it should read Response Fire) (It is however also correct that no unit can use Opportunity Fire whilst making an Assault - we can probably delete this as it is causing confusion as it is self-evident)

I suspect OPP FIRE has been used instead of Response Fire? If so needs to be clarified, as a unit can only use Opportunity Fire ONCE in the active players Command Phase. (Correct on both counts)

If it is CORRECT, then if a unit is assaulted in the Initiative or Command Phase suggests that the unit can only fire once, if indeed this is Opportunity rather than Response Fire, so if the unit or supporting unit is then assaulted again later and on a successful command roll, then the unit cannot fire?Huh???
(No, the intention is that unless suppressed the assaulted unit and its supporting units can all fire at each and every attacker as per a standard assault)
(Multiple assaults in the Initiative phase are problematic as the rules state that you can only action an Assault on the nearest enemy unit. I am also of the view that all such assaults should really be conducted simultaneously - so setting things up so that a 'queue' of attackers each within Initiative range of a single enemy unit, that can, in theory attack the target enemy unit in multiple waves is possible but would have to be pretty contrived to be sucessful. It also assumes that the original attacking unit is destroyed by the target, as if it falls back it will block the line of attack for the others behind it. Although of course you could have the 3 attacking units side by side, charging with the middle one, if that fails and is destroyed or falls back, then assault with their of the flanking units. But TBF it sounds to me that if you are doing this and the enemy unit is not suppressed, you're asking for trouble anyway  )

On the AA observations - AA must be split across individual aircraft that come on table under the same order. So if the FAC brings on 3 aircraft and there is an AA  gun with a 3/50 factor - for example - each aircraft will be subject to a single dice attack (assuming the attack point is not under half-range). If the AA is 2/50 the Defending player can chose which 2 of the 3 aircraft he can throw his 2 dice against.
Similarly, if the AA is from a dedicated AA unit, it CAN fire again in another turn, if the FAC is successful in bring on additional aircraft. The only exception being around Aerial Recce units - which are not considered to be a priority target if air strikes are also going on in a turn

Apologies for delays in replying, we are collating all errata and often a question like this triggers a trawl through the rules to establish if this is an isolated incident of the error or whether it has been duplicated elsewhere or has ramifications in other mechanisms.

Thanks
Mark

[Cross698]

OK thanks, thought that was the case.

[Dr Dave]

Mark, got it. This might need to go into the clarification since there is no mention of it in the air support section of any version of bkc. Also it's a deviation from previous versions in that AA can split their dice now. No other units can or could ever do this before and it makes AA unique in this regard.

[Cross698]

Mark, got it. This might need to go into the clarification since there is no mention of it in the air support section of any version of bkc. Also it's a deviation from previous versions in that AA can split their dice now. No other units can or could ever do this before and it makes AA unique in this regard.

Yes - AA has to be split as equally as possible, which is the difference from v2 to v4. I think a "differences" note from v2 to v4 would be really useful.

[Dr Dave]

Pete Jones covered it on the old forum. But he said that you could NOT split the dice. This meant saturating AA was simpler. 3 planes, one AA = one plane shot at and two get through.

[Cross698]

Yes I agree in V2 you couldn't, but in V4 it has to be split equally as far as possible. I haven't played V4 yet, but to be honest unless you are bringing in more than 1 plane it tended to not get in, in my experience anyway.

[Big Insect]

The intention is that AA fire must be split against the planes attacking as equally as possible. This is to avoid the issue of concentrating fire, especially as specialist AA weapons can now fire at more than one airstrike in a turn.
I thought I'd stated that somewhere specifically - I will need to check. But that is my intention. It is a change between v.2 and v.4 but is one that has been played as a CWC and FWC house rule for some time successfully

Going back to the issue around Response Fire during an Initiative assault ... this is more complicated than it looked at first sight as the wording in the Assault section could be confusing.
The intention is to avoid multiple attacks on the same unit. So ideally it should state that each attacking unit can only support one attack, with no restriction on the defenders support units. But the wording is not clear
Multiple assaulting the same unit in Initiative is actually quite hard to achieve as all the units must be within 10cm and units that have supported by firing cannot support themselves.

Again ... I'll check this across BKC2, CWC and FWC to establish the original core rule ... and report back.

On the version differences between v2 and v4 as I have previously stated, this is a major task, complicated by the unravelling of v3 in their midst - but I will have a go, but it wont be a quick responce ... as I only do all this part-time 

[Cross698]

OK thanks.

[Big Insect]

OK - definitive ruling.

Players may choose which units support an assault but each unit may only support one assault during the initiative phase and one assault per order during the command phase.

The above applies to both the Attacker and the Defender

Yes, that means that if you can contrive a situation where a column of unit can all use Initiative to assault the same enemy it might be possible to overwhelm it.
But that is the rules and that is how it is written in BKCIV.

Apologies it took me so long to come back to you on this, but it was one of those "doubting my own mind" questions.

Hope that helps

Mark

Thanks
Mark

[Cross698]

Makes sense to me, if you haven't surpressed them in your go and they don't use Opportunity Fire, then in their initiative Phase why not, if they are all at 10cm at the start.