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Author Topic: AA fire against scheduled strikes.  (Read 927 times)
Zbigniew
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« on: 28 April 2019, 09:28:27 AM »

Guys I need some clarification Smiley
page 16:
"Scheduled strikes using off-table assets are not subject to enemy anti-aircraft fire, as they are deemed to be delivered from an altitude that makes battlefield AA weapons inefective"

Does it mean all scheduled aircraft or only bombers but not ground attack planes? If all aircraft than it would mean purchasing AA weapons by (for example) German player vs Russian player redundant if the latter does not have FAC available on the army list.
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Steve J
General
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« Reply #1 on: 28 April 2019, 10:05:13 AM »

I would have said only Bombers being affected by this, but will await clarification. Funnily enough we talked about this in our last game, so well spotted.
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Big Insect
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« Reply #2 on: 28 April 2019, 10:39:59 AM »

Good spot - leave these with me - the intention was only Bombers as Strategic Air Strikes. And they would be immune from battlefield AA (generally). If you wanted to play a specific scenario, such as an attack on a strategic factory or bridge that might have had specifically placed larger AA guns, I'll see what I can work up as an optional rule.

The lack of an FAC in Russian lists may well be an oversight from BKCIII, as my intention was that all list with Air units would have at least 1 FAC, or it doesnt make sense of having the Air units in the lists.

If you want to play an FAC in a list without one, that has Air units to command, my general principle was that they should be a CV level below the lowest HQ in the army, and bought at an appropriate points cost. There are a few exceptions to this 'rule' but it's good guidance.

Hope that helps?

Mark 
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ianrs54
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WWW
« Reply #3 on: 28 April 2019, 11:20:27 AM »

Mark - FACs were much less common than people think, the Germans had 1 per division, and the cold war Soviets also only had 1. I suspect that WWII Western armies had 1 per Brigade/Rgt, but no more. Radios needed were big and heavy, as well as being fragile. British FACs had a 30cwt and an M5 1/2 track to move theirs.

IanS
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Big Insect
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« Reply #4 on: 28 April 2019, 11:39:32 AM »

Very true Ian , but the rules need FACs to bring down air strikes  Cheesy
Otherwise we need to create more mechanisms and more complexity (which I would like to avoid)
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Zbigniew
Lieutenant
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Posts: 205


« Reply #5 on: 28 April 2019, 11:45:38 AM »

Thank you for clarification Mark. Good idea with at least one FAC, I'll use it!
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #6 on: 28 April 2019, 02:02:51 PM »

The lack of an FAC in Russian lists may well be an oversight from BKCIII, as my intention was that all list with Air units would have at least 1 FAC, or it doesnt make sense of having the Air units in the lists.

In bkcii many lists had no FAC representing poor air ground cooperation - particularly early and mid war. Hence air support had to be scheduled for those armies. The notion of the British army in 1940 calling up some Fairey Battles in northern France is a bit... fanciful...  Shocked
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sultanbev
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« Reply #7 on: 28 April 2019, 04:13:11 PM »

" but the rules need FACs to bring down air strikes"
No, it means all air strikes are scheduled unless you have a FAC.Which would be historically correct. The Russians were still lamenting the lack of FACs in the 2008 Georgia war, and the Chinese only started training some in 2012. Many armies even in WW2 had "air force liaison officers" but these in no way represent FACs, merely a way for DHQ to ask for air support. How many DHQs do you field on table in BKC?

FACs were only available to:
German Panzer units and select motorised divisions, from the French campaign onwards, but 1 per brigade at best.
British & US Brigade HQs from mid 1944.
USMC divisions in 1944-45, about 3 per division.
No other lists should have them.
It could be argued that British in N Africa Nov 1942+ might also have them, and perhaps Finns 1940+, but thats about it.

Mark
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #8 on: 28 April 2019, 07:42:19 PM »

Mark is bank on the money with that assessment.

" but the rules need FACs to bring down air strikes"

No, it means all air strikes are scheduled unless you have a FAC.

Mark

I think it's terminology here: you need an FAC to call in an airstrike. You don't need an FAC to schedule an airstrike.
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Zbigniew
Lieutenant
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Posts: 205


« Reply #9 on: 28 April 2019, 08:31:52 PM »

After consideration I think I will leave the Russians without FAC unit and I will allow AA guns to fire against both scheduled and FAC initiated ground attack strikes.
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Big Insect
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« Reply #10 on: 29 April 2019, 03:37:46 PM »

Without your FAC how are your Russians going to bring on unscheduled air attacks ... or shall I just shut up and quit whilst I am vaguely ahead!!!
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Ithoriel
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Posts: 7398



« Reply #11 on: 29 April 2019, 03:38:45 PM »

Without your FAC how are your Russians going to bring on unscheduled air attacks ... or shall I just shut up and quit whilst I am vaguely ahead!!!

They won't ... because their historical counterparts couldn't.
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Zbigniew
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« Reply #12 on: 30 April 2019, 02:38:28 PM »

The problem is also with the lack of FAO unit in Russian army list.
I have just read Mother Rusia optional rules and it seems FAO unit is necessary to use Mother Russia artillery barage. So Mother Russia would be available only in final stage of war.
Is this correct?
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Ithoriel
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Posts: 7398



« Reply #13 on: 30 April 2019, 02:48:27 PM »

I'd assumed the Mother Russia barrage represented the sort of concentration of fire seen in actions like Seelow Heights where artillery was deployed on average one piece every 10 metres. If so, then definitely a late war thing.
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Big Insect
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« Reply #14 on: 30 April 2019, 03:11:42 PM »

Correct - I wanted to allow the Russian player to be able to concentrate their artillery in a significant manner.
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