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Author Topic: Cavalry shooting  (Read 423 times)
Dr Dave
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« on: 24 April 2019, 07:29:47 PM »

They have 2/10  -  This is really poor so is that when mounted?

Presumably they can dismount / deploy and get 3/30 like normal?
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“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
And the infantry are the bailiff’s men”
Zbigniew
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Posts: 198


« Reply #1 on: 24 April 2019, 08:19:03 PM »

WW2 cavalry had shorter carbines instead of rifles, less LMGs probably. I suppose that's why.
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #2 on: 24 April 2019, 08:39:00 PM »

2/10 ?...

That’s the same range of a PIAT  Grin.  Most have rifles by WW2. Plus there’s still a lot of cavalry around.

Carbines on foot are not that bad. No way, Surely it’s mounted use?
« Last Edit: 24 April 2019, 08:57:49 PM by Dr Dave » Logged

“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
And the infantry are the bailiff’s men”
Zbigniew
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Posts: 198


« Reply #3 on: 24 April 2019, 09:07:24 PM »

I have checked the rules and I now think its because the rules consider cavalry smg-equipped. SMGs have this range in he rules.
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #4 on: 24 April 2019, 09:51:53 PM »

Ahhhh you could have hit it there. Very odd considering most weren’t SMG equipped.  Sad
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“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
And the infantry are the bailiff’s men”
Big Insect
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Posts: 408


« Reply #5 on: 25 April 2019, 09:16:45 PM »

It's the SMG issue - and you are right very few (mostly Russians late War) were SMG armed. It's a bit of a cut and paste carry over.

It's also a balance as I didnt want different mounted and dismounted factors - it just complicates things at too granular a level.

So Carbines will have a shorter range and even those that are rifle armed are less effective. I've also taken the standard British training view that you lose 1:4 cavalrymen as horse holders when mounted so you are less effective. So there should be a difference between Cavalry with SMG and other cavalry - and a difference between Cavalry (dismounted) and their Infantry equivalents.

Does that make some sense?

Cheers
Mark
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Dr Dave
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Posts: 717



« Reply #6 on: 25 April 2019, 10:17:41 PM »

Yes. Perfect sense and understood. We can fudge the factors.
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“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
And the infantry are the bailiff’s men”
Big Insect
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« Reply #7 on: 26 April 2019, 08:20:17 PM »

It is on the Master Errata list to be sorted - many thanks

But giving dismounted Cavalry the same factors as Infantry is probably unwise (even in your fudge) as unit strengths were usually smaller, carbines are less effective than rifles - (shorter range and often less ammo was carried/available) and also, you have the horse holder factor so a 1:4 reduction in fighting men available to shoot (unless you are South African troops, as their horses were specifically trained to stand still on their own, even under fire - it was an old Boer War/WW1 trick apparently).

I'll have a think about revised stats - but differentiating between rifle armed cavalry and carbine armed is probably too granular a detail. SMG armed is a specific Russian issue and that is already covered under the current stats. but I'll also review that.

Cheers
Mark
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sultanbev
Playtester
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Posts: 391



« Reply #8 on: 27 April 2019, 09:12:47 AM »

Most dismounted cavalry squads had LMGs anyway in WW2, so you can ignore differences between carbines and rifles at BKC level. Unless you've started modelling LMGs separately all of a sudden in BKC4.

Mark
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Big Insect
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« Reply #9 on: 27 April 2019, 10:42:07 PM »

Not going down to that granular a level Mark.  So good call

Thanks
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Risaldar Singh
Second Lieutenant
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Posts: 70



« Reply #10 on: 12 May 2019, 09:37:43 AM »

Besides the AP factor, the elephant in the room is the fact that Cavalry only has 3 hits. Permanently so (when it could previously dismount with 6 hits if mounted infantry or 4 if mounted recce).

As for the firepower argument, it is a little contrived:
- as has been mentioned LMGs provided the overwhelming bulk of firepower so carbines don't really make much difference
- WW2 carbines were not as different from rifles as is made out anyway
- if carbines had such an impact, surely US airborne should be adjusted in part
- the 1-in-4 horseholder is anachronistic and certainly can't be applied in blanket fashion
- even if you do apply it, a lot (if not most) cavalry TO&Es allowed for this by having more rather than fewer bodies in cavalry platoons
- finally, if you go down that road, surely you must start to account for the fact that some platoons have 3 tanks and some have 5...

The mounted/dismounted fiddle factor was handled just fine in previous versions and I don't quite understand how it "complicates things at too granular a level" in a set of rules that now has jeeps with four special characteristics when previously "May transport one recce unit" was sufficient...
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Dr Dave
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Posts: 717



« Reply #11 on: 12 May 2019, 10:18:40 AM »

It’s 3 hits because the horses are a transport unit in effect I think, besides being a relatively easy Target? I’d certainly ignore the horse holder point as you say and give them the 6 hits  of normal infantry when dismounted.

All of the AFV stats in the rules are based on a single vehicle so your 3 vs 5 tanks per troop is correct. I negate all of this by using historical TOEs and then divide the strength by 4 to arrive at a number of models.

British cruiser regt in North Africa 12x Cruiser and 1x CS tank, in 1944 an armoured regt has 13x Shermans and 4x Firefly etc... that’s at full strength obviously.
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“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
And the infantry are the bailiff’s men”
Risaldar Singh
Second Lieutenant
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Posts: 70



« Reply #12 on: 12 May 2019, 10:37:12 AM »

What you say is true of V2 (horses are transports, use their 3 hits when mounted, revert to inf or recce hits when dismounted). But in V4, they cannot dismount. The only horses under transport are drought mules & horse with a move of 10...

Likewise, I use TO&E strengths (or actual if available for a scenario) and divide by 4 (a la Command Decision).
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