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Author Topic: "Rear line" and "Fast" issues  (Read 806 times)
Dr Dave
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« Reply #15 on: 03 May 2019, 03:21:00 PM »

Mark,

Now I am confused

Fast units do not actually have to move or have moved to utilize the Fast ability...

But if it doesn't even have to move - it could be stationary and get the fast benefit?

If there’s no threshold as to how fast the vehicle must move in order to benefit from it. Personally I think it is a good rule that is unworkable. Imagine a vehicle with a fast 25 cm move. Say it has been qualified that it needs to move 25 cm to benefit from being fast. But it only moved 20 cm, all the owner has to say is that it did move 25, but in a wavey-line-drive up to the spot 20 from its start point.  :-

If first point is right - uhhhhhh OK. I probably wont be able to swing that one past me fellow players in a game.

If the second point is right - uhhhh, OK. But I can't see people liking that either.


The odd thing is I've always thought that bkc lacked some rule on target speed - but this seems to be unworkable.

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“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
And the infantry are the bailiff’s men”
Big Insect
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« Reply #16 on: 03 May 2019, 03:49:19 PM »

With all this it needs to be remembered that a unit is not a single tank/vehicle - it's a formation consisting of a number of vehicles and their support, conducting various actions in a move.

It could also be argued that a particular formation might have a more dispersed doctrine than another, this might vary from country to country or even between different unit organisation in the same army. Should that be depicted? I'd argue it is going down to a granularity that applies more to a skirmish level game - in which case Bolt Action or Crossfire might be a better set of rules to play.

In fact, the Mongolian scout cavalry in the Early Russian list probably could be classified as 'dispersed' but it was equally fast moving and also relatively low profile.  Smiley

The principle of 'Fast' as a characteristic was introduced to cover off the very issue you've raised, that a unit moving quickly is a more difficult target. I did consider giving the -1 d6 effect on Fast for area fire templates as well. As it could potentially be argued that a Fast vehicle moves more quickly through the zone of fire than a slower one. But does that expose it to more shells or aircraft cannon rounds or less than if it remained stationary or moved more slowly ... I don't know but it all seemed too much detail.
 
There is also a Commander series rules principle, that you try minimize 'book keeping' as much as possible. So recording if a unit had or hadn't moved to gain the Fast benefit was a step too far IMHO. There is the overall question as to whether a unit that moved in the Active players turn is considered to be moving in the following turn (the opponents active turn)?

I suppose you could use small brown stained cotton wool 'dust cloud' markers to indicate that a unit has moved - but as you say - has it moved far enough to qualify as Fast or not.

TBF - if you find the concept so difficult, by all means in your own games do just drop the Fast Special Characteristic.

Cheers

Mark


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Big Insect
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« Reply #17 on: 03 May 2019, 04:01:33 PM »

Thinking about it - 'Fast' is a bit like 'Hover' or 'Grav' capabilities for units in FWC.

Units are considered to have the benefits or disadvantages of this type of movement/characteristic even if they are stationary or even in defenses.

It's just a game mechanism

Cheers
Mark
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #18 on: 03 May 2019, 04:50:09 PM »

Were doing a 1940 BEF game tomorrow.

The Vickers A13 is fast. Fast represents them generally "milling about"

A13s on a hill and get the +1 for the cover - which represents them being hull down? +1 for fast as well means they are hit on a 6.

Surely they can't benefit from both - they cant be in cover and driving around a lot. It's a tank.

I can see the benefit of the fast rule in the open - hence the British cruiser "charges". But surely only one of those modifiers can apply at a time?

Sorry to pester, but I'm going to have to "sell" this to a bunch f hairy arsed ne'er-do-wells tomorrow  Sad




« Last Edit: 03 May 2019, 06:51:44 PM by Dr Dave » Logged

“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
And the infantry are the bailiff’s men”
Sandinista
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« Reply #19 on: 04 May 2019, 06:41:47 AM »

Though I'm not sure how you can lie a motor cycle combination down.

Try riding one without a passenger in the wind Cry

Cheers
Ian
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ianrs54
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WWW
« Reply #20 on: 04 May 2019, 08:16:44 AM »

But on it's side a combo would be bigger than on its wheels.
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Big Insect
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« Reply #21 on: 04 May 2019, 04:54:15 PM »

What can I say Dr Dave!

If you want the 'Fast' special characteristic to only apply if a unit with it has moved (any distance at all) then that's fine by me. That's your prerogative  Smiley
I hope the game goes well ... a game report is always well received and much appreciated.

Cheers

Mark
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #22 on: 05 May 2019, 08:43:44 AM »

Ok.

Yes it’s was a great game thanks. The guys were unclear on how to resolve the A13 question so we did 1st Army tank brigades effort at Arras. The Brits (me) got a tonking. I had some dire command rolls and just as the Matilda’s got into range the blunders came thick and fast. Eventually the CV was permanently reduced from 8 to 6, so a bit crippling under the barrels of 3x 88s and 2x 105s.

It was tremendous fun and very very atmospheric. My Pal has everything beautifully painted up in 15 mm, and showed us his Pz regt for Poland 39 - grey and brown camo with white crosses. He has 2 in just grey with black/white crosses for 1940 as well. A proper megalomaniac. He has a house just south of the original battlefield nr Arras so is very familiar with the area.

We’ll hold off on the A13 actions until we’ve given more thought as a group and folks have decided if they are fast or if it’s a typo.
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“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
And the infantry are the bailiff’s men”
Cross698
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« Reply #23 on: 05 May 2019, 09:47:42 AM »

I thought the A13 was the first based on the Christie Suspension and thought it was a fast tank at 30mph and was the basis for the Coventer/Crusader. The A10 was also designated as a "cruiser" tank, but originally designed as a Close Support tank and was very slow. I did Arras as a weekend game a few years back, it was a fun game.

Andy
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #24 on: 05 May 2019, 11:27:53 AM »

Yes, but it’s fast in the BEF list but not in North Africa, so we assumed one of them is a typo. Fast isn’t solely based on speed. Just awaiting a clarification but Mark has buried his books on British cruiser tanks in his garden.  Cry
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“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
And the infantry are the bailiff’s men”
sultanbev
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« Reply #25 on: 05 May 2019, 10:56:11 PM »

The A13 Mk.1 had speed 48kmh on road, 38kmh cross-country.
The A-13 Mk.II had speed 48kmh on road, 22kmh cross-country.
For a christie type suspension this is actually quite slow road speed, when you compare it to say BT-5 or BT-7, with only the 38kmh cross-country of the Mk.1 particularly fast.

To count as a "fast" characteristic whilst the model is halted hull down is a bit peculier, but could represent the tanks firing a few rapid shots, reversing then reappearing quickly somewhere else on the ridge. Appropriate for a Hellcat, not something I've heard of for British tank tactics.

Mark
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #26 on: 08 May 2019, 05:40:14 PM »

I’m not sure bkc was granular enough in design to differentiate twixt mk1 and mk2? Besides, both types are in France surely?
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“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
And the infantry are the bailiff’s men”
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