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Author Topic: Master list for the revamped Feudal Japanese range!  (Read 4588 times)
Leon
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« on: 17 April 2019, 12:56:32 AM »

We were hoping to have this up last month but Salute and BKC delayed things slightly.  This is the current list that our sculptor will be working from to upgrade our current Samurai range with new sculpts and codes.  Have a read and let us know if you think we're missing anything.

Also, we've not settled on which personalities to go with yet.  Really these need to be the most visually distinctive, rather than a series of similar helmeted chaps wearing the same gear!

Ashigaru with:
Arquebus - 2 poses
Longbow - 2 poses
Naginata - 2 poses
Spear - 2 poses

Armed Peasants with:
Arquebus - 2 poses
Longbow - 2 poses
Naginata - 2 poses

Warrior Monks
Sohei (10th-14th C.) – 3 poses (naginata/katana)
Ikko-Ikki (16th-17th C.) – 3 poses (naginata/arquebus/spiked club)

Ninjas – 3 poses

Samurai with:
Katana - 2 poses
Longbow - 2 poses
Naginata - 2 poses
Spear - 2 poses

Mounted Samurai with:
Longbow – 2 poses
Naginata – 2 poses
Spear – 2 poses

Foot Command
Officer, Conch shell blower and Nobori (larger sashimono-type) banner-man (open handed?)
Ashigaru banner-man, open handed x 1
Taiko drum and a couple of drummers

Mounted Command
Mounted General and standard bearer (open handed)

Seated General x 1
Standing General x 1

Banners
Sashimono banner - Small and Large
Sashimono banner, empty frame - Small and Large
Uma-Jirushi banner, empty frame
Nobori banner, empty frame
Horse-hair ball standard

Pavise, small
Bamboo pavise, large
Maku screen

Artillery crew – 4 poses
Emplaced gun

Casualty – 1 pose

Civilians – 4 poses

Personalities
Takeda Shinden?
Ishida Mitsunare?
Date Masamune?
Toyotomi Hideyoshi?
Honda Tadakatsu?
Uesugi Kenshin?
« Last Edit: 19 April 2019, 11:55:04 PM by Leon » Logged

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mmcv
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« Reply #1 on: 17 April 2019, 07:08:24 AM »

Great looking list!

For personalities, I'd say Oda Nobunaga and Tokugawa Ieyasu were two of the biggest personalities of the era and we'll worth representing. I'd also give a shout out to Uesugi Kenshin as an interesting character to model and as a rival to Takeda Shingen.

Will the artillery crew include guns? Cannon didn't really come into action until the end of the Sengoku Jidae, and weren't widely used, but when they were they were typically smaller breech loading swivel guns rather than the typical western field artillery. I believe they tended mostly to be use for castle defence as well, so tended to be more emplaced.
« Last Edit: 17 April 2019, 07:13:39 AM by mmcv » Logged
fsn
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« Reply #2 on: 17 April 2019, 07:32:02 AM »

Get thee behind me!

Looks comprehensive. Is there a reason for there being no mounted samuari with katana?

For those of you with a more Eastern bent, how would these fit with the Mongol range and 1274?

Just asking for a friend.  Embarrassed




Every time I see Ikko-Ikki, I start singing a Cyndi Lauper song ..."My grand-ma and your grand-ma were sit-tin' by the fire; My grand-ma told your grand-ma: "I'm gon-na set your flag on fire"
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Lord Oik of Runcorn
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mmcv
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« Reply #3 on: 17 April 2019, 08:01:50 AM »

Get thee behind me!

Looks comprehensive. Is there a reason for there being no mounted samuari with katana?

For those of you with a more Eastern bent, how would these fit with the Mongol range and 1274?

Just asking for a friend.  Embarrassed




Every time I see Ikko-Ikki, I start singing a Cyndi Lauper song ..."My grand-ma and your grand-ma were sit-tin' by the fire; My grand-ma told your grand-ma: "I'm gon-na set your flag on fire"

Katana were generally meant as a side arm for personal protection or very close combat. They wouldn't have been particularly effective from horseback as the relatively short blade to long handle wouldn't give much reach. Spears and polearms were much more common and as they weren't charging in breaking lances the way Western cavalry would their spears were often made of more flexible wood so less prone to breaking. Naginata are essentially swords on the end of a polearm to make them more effective.

You could easily enough do a Mongol opposition army from this list, keep away from anyone with guns and include plenty of samurai. Massed armies of peasant ashigaru were an evolution of warfare that came later with mass production of weapons and gunpowder. In the 13th C samurai were still the mainstay of the army with peasants playing a supporting role. Samurai mounted bowmen would still have been prevalent as well, whereas in later periods horse archery had been reduced to more of a sport, like jousting in the west.

I've often thought of the same song...but now it'll be in my head all day...thanks...
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fsn
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« Reply #4 on: 17 April 2019, 08:31:58 AM »

I ... my friend ... was thinking of a sword armed mounted samurai as an officer type. It is of no consequence.

My his interest in Japanese warfare has always been pre-gunpowder. Nasty things, blowing smoke all over the place.

Dammit. Dammit. Dammit.

I've often thought of the same song...but now it'll be in my head all day...thanks...
You're welcome.  Cheesy
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Lord Oik of Runcorn
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Oik of the Year 2013
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15mm is dead. It just doesn't know it yet.
fred.
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« Reply #5 on: 17 April 2019, 08:39:31 AM »

Looks a good list. If it’s possisble to squeeze in another pose on some of the core troops that would be good.

Not that I need another period.
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mmcv
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« Reply #6 on: 17 April 2019, 09:16:24 AM »

I ... my friend ... was thinking of a sword armed mounted samurai as an officer type. It is of no consequence.

My his interest in Japanese warfare has always been pre-gunpowder. Nasty things, blowing smoke all over the place.

Dammit. Dammit. Dammit.
You're welcome.  Cheesy

You..r friend could always snip a naginata shaft down and stick the blade closer to the hand as a quick conversion. Depending how the poses end up looking!
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mad lemmey
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« Reply #7 on: 17 April 2019, 09:23:17 AM »

Sounds brilliant.
May I add a vote for Uesugi Kenshin too
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FierceKitty
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« Reply #8 on: 17 April 2019, 11:20:40 AM »

Looks fun. Advise that ashigaru spearman be duplicated with i) short spear; ii) pike. Despite WRG claims, there is overwhelming evidence in Japanese museums and writing for very long two-handers.

As mentioned previously, a monk with a bloody big two-handed kanabo club would be invaluable, as also a gun on a pile of rice bales. Peasant axeman or mallet-waver.

Tadakatsu, Hideyoshi.

A couple of civvies would be pretty too, of course.

Taiko drum and a couple of drummers beating the rising sun out of it.
« Last Edit: 17 April 2019, 11:32:46 AM by FierceKitty » Logged

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FierceKitty
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« Reply #9 on: 17 April 2019, 11:28:55 AM »

Get thee behind me!

Looks comprehensive. Is there a reason for there being no mounted samuari with katana?

For those of you with a more Eastern bent, how would these fit with the Mongol range and 1274?

Just asking for a friend.  Embarrassed

Every time I see Ikko-Ikki, I start singing a Cyndi Lauper song ..."My grand-ma and your grand-ma were sit-tin' by the fire; My grand-ma told your grand-ma: "I'm gon-na set your flag on fire"


There seem to be a couple; has the list been modified?
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mmcv
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« Reply #10 on: 17 April 2019, 10:32:04 PM »


There seem to be a couple; has the list been modified?

It was mounted ones he was looking, all the katana ones are infantry on the list.

Good point on n the pikes, my understanding is both yari spears and pikes were used, with pikes becoming more prevalent in the later periods.

Civvies were mentioned, but the kanabo monks would be fun for sure.
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Leon
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« Reply #11 on: 17 April 2019, 11:57:12 PM »

Will the artillery crew include guns?

We'll be doing the emplaced types in FK's pic:



Looks comprehensive. Is there a reason for there being no mounted samuari with katana?

As mmcv says, not sure if they'd be of much use but we'll see what we can do.

Looks fun. Advise that ashigaru spearman be duplicated with i) short spear; ii) pike. Despite WRG claims, there is overwhelming evidence in Japanese museums and writing for very long two-handers.

We'll see if we can add the longer ones, but they tend to be tricky to cast.

As mentioned previously, a monk with a bloody big two-handed kanabo club would be invaluable, as also a gun on a pile of rice bales. Peasant axeman or mallet-waver.

Would that be the earlier or later type of monk?

A couple of civvies would be pretty too, of course.

We've got those covered!

Taiko drum and a couple of drummers beating the rising sun out of it.

That's a nice addition, I'll see if we can get those onto the list.

Looks a good list. If it’s possisble to squeeze in another pose on some of the core troops that would be good.

We'll see what we can do there.
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FierceKitty
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« Reply #12 on: 18 April 2019, 12:30:07 AM »

I fear you'll need more of an expert than I on the dates for the big club (though I'll happily have a fossick around later; right now I'm having brekkies). At a guess, I'd say later, since it's clearly an armour-smasher, and there was a lot more armour in the later era.

Btw, some voices that should not be ignored suggest that non-samurai made up 95% of pre-Sengoku Japanese armies too. They just didn't get into the histories. Just as most Homeric warriors weren't chariot-dragoons (in fact, none were!), and the great majority of crusaders weren't knights.

One the subject of mounted swordsmen, the celebrated single combat between Kenshin and Shingen involved Kenshin on a horse and using a sword, and Shingen on a stool using a fan. Perhaps the portrait figure of Kenshin so many are calling for could be a swordsman? Of course, he'd be in monkish dress.

« Last Edit: 18 April 2019, 12:37:51 AM by FierceKitty » Logged

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FierceKitty
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« Reply #13 on: 18 April 2019, 12:40:30 AM »

Ashigaru pikemen could follow the lead (not pb ) of your Hellenistic open-handed phalangites. I prefer pikes of a sturdier metal anyway.
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FierceKitty
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« Reply #14 on: 18 April 2019, 12:15:21 PM »

I've found a claim that the tetsubo/kanabo/great big thumping instrument was invented in the era of the North and South Courts (don't believe Japanese who claim there's one unbroken and undisputed succession); that would mean anything from the early 14th century on. So possibly not suitable for the Gempei War or the Mongol invasions, but very good for the Warring States and the invasion of the mainland in Hideyoshi's day.

I do not entirely trust the source making the claim, however.
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