Panther 1944 - unreliable?

Started by jaztez, 12 April 2019, 03:24:43 PM

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jaztez

I ask this as I'm not sure.

I thought they had issues in Russia initially, but the later versions were fine?
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Ithoriel

Yeah, there are still waaaaay too many "special abilities" that represent nothing so much as "Hollywood History" or possibly GW-ism, IMNSHO.

If Panthers are unreliiable then so is every British tank up to the Cromwell.

To be fair, the initial Panthers had a distressing habit of self-igniting but I've never read an account of it happening* while actually in action which is all that BKC covers.

However, these things are simple enough to house-rule in or out, as required, so I'm not too fussed.

Mike


* I await a slew of references proving me wrong :)
There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

jaztez

Ha ha not from me. I'll be ignoring most of the special rules, and if the panther is unreliable them the tiger should be!
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steve_holmes_11

I hear their reliability decreased when they encountered a 17 pounder.

Ithoriel

Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 12 April 2019, 05:53:26 PM
I hear their reliability decreased when they encountered a 17 pounder.

That is definitely covered by the main rules in BKC :)
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Dave Fielder

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Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Even later Panthers were unreliable - and tended to overheat, after about 30-40 miles with the engine covers down.

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toxicpixie

If you look at Panthers availability & reliability stats they were awful even in the most (least un) reliable versions. The later models were better, but they were still woeful. Their combat performance was also terrible - took 7-8 dead Panthers to kill a Sherman on the offensive, with Panther in defensive posture it still took 1.1 dead Panthers per dead Sherman!

Their theoretical hard stats were incredible. In practise they were... well, it's no surprise that when German tanks had excellent "soft stats" against Allied "hard stats" they won, and vice versa (though arguably mid to late war Allied tank hard stats were plenty good enough anyway :D).
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Ithoriel

All the stuff I've read says the later Panther was on a par with the PzIII and PzIV for reliability and that because it was mass produced it was easier to source parts for the Panther than the earlier, almost hand-crafted, tanks.

Tigers on the other hand ....

If the Panther is unreliable then I still contend that all British tanks pre-Cromwell should be too.

As to loss rates, I think that has more to do with comparative numbers and lack of air superiority than it does with relative merits of individual tanks.

"If it shows up blue, it's British. If it shows up white, it's American. If it doesn't show up at all, it's the Luftwaffe!"
There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

toxicpixie

Tiger & Tiger II availability rates were @50%, not far off PzIV (and way below Cromwell, Sherman, even the T34). Panther was down in the low 30% rate even for late models.

Significantly worse than pretty much anything. To be fair to early British tanks they often at least worked at the start of an operation, even if they broke down rapidly in action :D

Those loss rates are tank on tank, and often with Panthers in equivalent numbers. British OR from Normandy (backed up by the US field research) reckoned Panther needed a three to one numerical superiority when in DEFENSE to win!

It was an underserved shock at first - Allies training had had "too much swanning around" and too much hand waving over potentially needing a bigger *standard* gun on more tanks, but overall - "the complaints got lost in all the success".

Operating Panther after  more than 15 miles from getting them off the train was an exercise in anguish and abandonment :D
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mart678

All tanks are unreliable you could roll a dice at start of game to see how many tanks on each side break down?
Would add to realism
95% +  of Challenger 1 available during desert storm so even modern tanks don't work there are thousands of parts that could go wrong so if you have 10 tanks at start of game roll a D10 would be interesting way of doing it you could have 10 tanks and roll a D4,D6 or D8 depends what you fancy it would show fog of war. My vehicle in Gulf not an MBT but still tracked to turn left I had to use both hands on tiller and then it turned like a super tanker 😂

toxicpixie

16 April 2019, 10:49:43 AM #11 Last Edit: 16 April 2019, 11:40:26 AM by toxicpixie
Chally 1's excellent Gulf availabllity was achieves by crippling virtually every tank in the BAOR :D Would have been ideal time for the Soviets to kick off. If they had any running tanks, petrol, political will or existed :D

The point with the "Unreliable" marker is that it's defining a particularly egregious example of an unreliable tank - by the time Panther was falling apart in service the Allies expected, and achieved,  a tank battalion (Sherman, Cromwell) to be able to do a sixty mile plus route march, eight or more hours on the road and deploy into an attack at close to full strength with crews capable of fighting.

Panther on the other hand, even late models, was lucky to hit one in three runners even before enemy action :D

Not that I disagree with the system you're suggesting - buy a full, max price battalion of tanks, then roll according to runners. You'll probably get a while Sherman battalion, but only a company of Panthers out :D
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Jimbo94

We could always
1 Call it unreliable if you think that's correct
2 Call it reliable if you disagree
3 If one players thinks one way and one the other then roll a D6 at the start of the game and go with the result
4 Continue to debate it.........for ever

mart678

I will have you know toxicpixie they had 1 fully operational challenger 1 in BAOR lol ;D

toxicpixie

That'll stop 'em dead on the IGB then :D

To be fair one runner is probably better than Panther ;)
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