Earliest depiction of a Western-European kite shield

Started by Druzhina, 08 April 2019, 06:46:23 AM

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Sandinista

Did kite shields originate in western Europe or were they an import?

Cheers
Ian


toxicpixie

Ian, according to my absurdly small research (fifteen mins the other day when I saw this post and got briefly interested), they originate in Western Europe (Spain-France-Burgundy/Low Countries), spread to the HRE/Italy, then to the east and Byzantium/Russia way on the first Crusade onwards. I'm sure someone with more than ten mins of web browsing can provide better :D

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Sandinista

I found similar, but was wondering if the bits I found were just eurocentric viewpoints ignoring what was occurring in the east  :)

Cheers
Ian

toxicpixie

You're suggesting there's anything past the Vistula to the east or the Danube to the south?! Good ghu man, are you some kind of wierdo?!
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Druzhina

Quote from: toxicpixie on 10 April 2019, 08:36:29 AM
Ian, according to my absurdly small research (fifteen mins the other day when I saw this post and got briefly interested), they originate in Western Europe (Spain-France-Burgundy/Low Countries), spread to the HRE/Italy, then to the east and Byzantium/Russia way on the first Crusade onwards. I'm sure someone with more than ten mins of web browsing can provide better :D



As a kite shield is depicted in a 10th century Byzantine Manuscript of the Iliad, the Byzantines had kite shields well before the crusades. 

As for Italy:
Mozaic of a Caucasian with kite shield & a Negro Swordsman Fighting, Vercelli, Piedmont., Italy, about 1040
A small kite shield is depicted in 'Lombard King Rotario Dictating the Law'. Codex Legum Longobardorum, Italy, 11th century. Abbey Cava de Tirreny, Campania. Ms. 4, f 15v
A kite shield is carried in 'Saint Benedict frees a prisoner', Lombard, c.1070, Monte Cassino Southern Italy.  Ms.Lat. 1202, Vatican Lib., Rome.

The iconography would suggest the kite shield moved from the east to the west.

Druzhina
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toxicpixie

Nice, good old Western European assumptions :D

Yeah, looks more like a Byzantine innovation that filtered west to Europe and east to Georgia and the Middle East!

Looks like the "Norman Shield" theory is dead in the water these days? So much for my (twenty years ago) history tutor and ten mins on the web ;)

On which note anyone a Wiki editor? That's currently basically a steal from the "Norman Shield" books :D
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Sunray

Quote from: toxicpixie on 11 April 2019, 09:00:57 AM
Nice, good old Western European assumptions :D

Yeah, looks more like a Byzantine innovation that filtered west to Europe and east to Georgia and the Middle East!

Looks like the "Norman Shield" theory is dead in the water these days? So much for my (twenty years ago) history tutor and ten mins on the web ;)

On which note anyone a Wiki editor? That's currently basically a steal from the "Norman Shield" books :D

A lot of orthodox history (the received view) often hangs on the surviving primary source(s).  In the case of the kite shield, the Bayeux Tapestry is a Mount Rushmore like icon.   It is authenticated, and establishes that the Norman's had the kite since 1070 and no doubt at least four years earlier.

To challange this orthodoxy takes  diligent research to establish a creditable revision.  It will hang on the aspects like (a) good primary sources, (b) the correct context - did the culture that produced the source have a heavy cavalry tradition ?

These boxes appear to be ticked.  :)

toxicpixie

Indeed, and then you have to drag a hundred years of text books and academic surety into the new  orthodoxy which is always hard work :D

I'm convinced but then I don't have a dog in the race, as it were ;)
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kustenjaeger

Have you seen this thread http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.34487.html ?

This discusses dates etc of a number of images.

Regards

Edward

toxicpixie

Yes, the bulk of dating supporting the Iliad image as 10th century seemed reasonable. Ofc it might not be, but on balance that discussion suggested Byzantine out rather than Crusade in...

But then, I'm just skim reading other people's opinions of sources without any great skin in the game :D
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