Query about Cossacks

[FierceKitty]

Do people see Zaporozhian armies as disciplined professionals, or as fierce impetuous individuals? If so, on what evidence?

[Leman]

Where on earth is Zhaparosia (and also WHENon earth)?

[Ithoriel]

Zaporozhia, the 'land beyond the rapids'

See Zaparozhian Cossacks

I'd go for skilled, disciplined irregulars, FK.

[FierceKitty]

Disciplined irregulars? Sounds a bit like hot snow! Or is the implication just a strong degree of control by low-level example?

[FierceKitty]

Where on earth is Zhaparosia (and also WHENon earth)?

Polish-subsidised Ukrainians serving as a barrier against Tatars and Ottomans. In theory.

[Ithoriel]

Disciplined irregulars? Sounds a bit like hot snow! Or is the implication just a strong degree of control by low-level example?

They aren't paid or drilled but they've been riding since before they could walk and know the part they are to play ... and the penalties consequent on failing to play that part.

[steve_holmes_11]

Where on earth is Zhaparosia (and also WHENon earth)?

You wouldn't want to see their nasty side.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reply_of_the_Zaporozhian_Cossacks

Top trolling by the lads with the bushy moustaches.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Zaporozhia, the 'land beyond the rapids'

See Zaparozhian Cossacks

I'd go for skilled, disciplined irregulars, FK.

Yes I'd agree, irregular but with harsh internal discipline (drowning for unauthorised drinking or AWOL while in camp). At this point in time (I'm assuming you're meaning mid 17th century) most would have been infantry with horses available for transport. The tabor (wagon train) was an important part of their military thinking as it gave the infantry a chance against mainly cavalry opponents. The tabor was widely used, including by their Polish opponents, one Polish army was besieged behind their tabor and attempted to breaak containment by moving their tabor but were worn down by the Cossacks and Tartars.

[Hwiccee]

Some of the Cossacks, the elite units which were usually in other peoples armies, were OK irregular skirmishing troops. Most of the rest were pretty ropey and more like a bandit gang. I can't remember now but there was a good quote in a book/army list or similar about them. The gist of which was forget the idea of them being 'skilled, elite troops armed to the teeth'. Instead think of them as a bunch of cowardly bandits who would only tackle someone who they outnumbered 10 to 1 and who was preferable unarmed, old, a child or sick/wounded. An exaggeration but not that much of one.

As mentioned they weren't drilled and while the internal discipline seems extreme, it was actually fairly common at the time, the thing to remember is Cossack society was very fluid. It was after all largely made up of people who had run away from somewhere else & there was absolutely nothing to stop them moving somewhere else. All of the Cossack hordes were split into factions and another faction would welcome them & so would the various other hordes. It was more like the kind of terror that Mafia gangs use to keep people in line rather than 'discipline'.

The Zaporozhian Cossacks had few horses and specialised in shooting from defensive positions, sometimes portable, and operations in boats.

[FierceKitty]

They were cowardly bandits who raided the outskirts of Stamboul and walloped several Polish armies! What qualifies as brave - free-diving in a volcano? 

I know about the tabor; got one in my Zap. army, and it's one of the few things that can hold a Polish HC charge. The camp discipline is well documented too. What I'm curious about is whether that wild, free "No man is our master" attitude showed itself in a readiness to hold the line (lots of muskets, and some pikes: not very effective in a mob, deadly in a steady line), or rather in a tendency to fire a single massed volley and then let 'em have it with the axe, which they can't have lugged about just for the macho factor.

[Hwiccee]

The stuff about 'cowardly bandits' was a summary of an 'experts' view on the Cossacks. Yes they could raid and everyone did it, it was fairly easy to do given the wide open spaces, lack of defensive lines, lack of opposing military forces to stop it. Raiding to the outskirts of some city, even deep into enemy territory, was a common event at the time but the masters at doing that were the Tatars.

Part of the point about the 'cowardly bandits' idea is that to see why the Cossacks 'walloped the Poles' you need to look at what the Polish armies were like and the general situation. The Cossacks had 3 'big' victories in the early part of the rebellion on which their reputation is largely based. The Poles at this time basically didn't have an army and so were scraping together whatever they could get to for an 'army'. They were also totally divided and arguing amongst themselves. In the first 2 the Poles were outnumbered something like 4 to 5 to 1. The Cossacks had substantial Tatar allies, who were a good military force. The Tatars were more than half of the 'Cossack' army at one of the battles and both battles the Tatars feature large in accounts. At the third battle the Poles were stronger but the army was total rubbish and the commanders divided & well basically every was bad. The Cossacks again had Tatar assistance but this wasn't important as in effect the Polish army just collapsed and fled before much really fighting happened. There were a few skirmishes then the Polish army fled over night abandoning everything, much to the surprise of the Cossacks/Tatars.

On your question on tactics I don't know and I think you will struggle to find out. This is mainly because the 'No man is our master' attitude and most ideas on the Cossacks are based on 19th century romantic novels and not on history.

[FierceKitty]

On your question on tactics I don't know and I think you will struggle to find out. This is mainly because the 'No man is our master' attitude and most ideas on the Cossacks are based on 19th century romantic novels and not on history.

Mmm, that's what I'm afraid of. But thanks for your feedback.