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Author Topic: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!  (Read 3308 times)
John Cook
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« Reply #15 on: 01 March 2019, 01:09:21 PM »

thank you @paulr
Indeed, I'm not native English speaker.
I'm sorry if I offended anybody.

@Zippee
Who is Rawkins you cited ?

'WJ Rawkins' is the author of a series if booklets that were published in the early 1970s, on about every army of the Napoleonic period.  I must have had every one, I think, and at the time I was glad to, because information was not easily accessible and they filled a gap.  They are presently available on CD in what are said to be revised versions.  They need to be revised because the originals were, to be frank, not very good.   I haven't seen any of the new CD editions so I can't comment on them.

Be that as it may, if you look at modern material by people like Ryszard Morawski and Jan Czop, and older stuff by Gembarzewski and Malibran and Chelminski, I think you have a point.  It is certainly true to say that a hat was much more typical.



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sultanbev
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« Reply #16 on: 01 March 2019, 02:17:51 PM »

The 1970s Rawkins books are completely different from the 21st Century Rawkins e-books/CDs, and are far more authorative. I have an original one on the Swedes, and the current 3rd editiion and the constrast is massive. Colour is used throughout now too.

http://www.thehistorybookman.webeden.co.uk/

Mark

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maciek
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« Reply #17 on: 01 March 2019, 08:03:00 PM »

Frankly speaking, I lost my interest in napoleonic period in 1990's, so I'm not familiar with newest research, but all sources cited "kapelusz stosowany*" as a headgear of infantry officers.
Only exceptions were grenadier officer who wore bearskins and officers of "Spanish" division, who wore French shakos like their men.

*kapelusz stosowany = bicorn

But wait, wait ...
This page
http://www.napoleon.org.pl/index.php/biblioteka-barwy-i-broni/piechota-xw-wg-przepisu-z-2-marca-1807
shows officers in Polish chapska, but only in 1807.

http://www.napoleon.org.pl/index.php/biblioteka-barwy-i-broni/piechota-xw-wg-przepisu-3-wrzesnia-1810
According to 1810 regulations, officers wore bicorns.

This page is even most intersting:
http://www.napoleon.org.pl/index.php/biblioteka-barwy-i-broni/piechota-xw-na-podstawie-ikonografii-zrodlowej
because it shows soldiers according to contemporary sources, not regulations !

So it seems, officers can use both headgear ...   
More you live, more you learn as old proverb says ...
 Smiley
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Maciek

http://zealandbayonets.blogspot.com/
wargaming in 10mm

2015 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!
sultanbev
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« Reply #18 on: 01 March 2019, 08:31:41 PM »

Yes, Rawkins book quoted above "The officers were issued with the same pattern czapka as the men; however, this was generally only worn for full dress and was replaced in the field with the bicorn hat."

So for wargaming purposes, either could be correct. I'll probably do them in czapkas for 1st battalions of a regiment, bicornes for other battalions of the regiment.

Mark
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maciek
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« Reply #19 on: 02 March 2019, 10:06:15 AM »

Yes, Rawkins book quoted above "The officers were issued with the same pattern czapka as the men; however, this was generally only worn for full dress and was replaced in the field with the bicorn hat."

Gembarzewski stated quite oposite:
In 1810 regulations bicorn was worn with full dress, and he didnt mention czapka at all.
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Maciek

http://zealandbayonets.blogspot.com/
wargaming in 10mm

2015 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!
John Cook
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« Reply #20 on: 02 March 2019, 02:01:25 PM »

Bronislaw Gembarzewski, Polish Army. Army of The Grand Duchy of Warsaw 1807-1814 first published in 1905, republished 2015.   https://www.abebooks.co.uk/WOJSKO-POLSKIE-KSIESTWO-WARSZAWSKIE-1807-1814-POLISH/17733082174/bd


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sultanbev
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« Reply #21 on: 02 March 2019, 02:42:45 PM »

Ah, we are mixing up 1809 and 1810 here.
"In 1810 regulations bicorn was worn with full dress, and he didnt mention czapka at all. " Totally correct I expect,  but this post is about 1809 Polish.

"The officers were issued with the same pattern czapka as the men; however, this was generally only worn for full dress and was replaced in the field with the bicorn hat."
Refers to the 1807-1809 period.

Mark
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John Cook
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« Reply #22 on: 06 March 2019, 01:19:32 PM »

I remain unconvinced by Rawkins.   This is why.  Although czpaskas were worn apparently by some infantry during the period 1807-1809, the March 1807 regulations prescribed shakos for all ranks and at least four infantry regiments wore them during the period.  I would like to know where the information came from that "The officers were issued with the same pattern czapka as the men......  Does it say? 
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sultanbev
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« Reply #23 on: 06 March 2019, 01:42:27 PM »

pg.16: "The regulations for the dress of 2nd March 1807 called for all companies to be equipped with the traditional Polish cap the czapka,"

which is directly opposite of what you've just said.


There is a list of sources, many Polish, on page 130. It includes the one you mentioned: Bronislaw Gembarzewski, Polish Army. Army of The Grand Duchy of Warsaw 1807-1814.

He does go on to cite exceptions to regulations where they have been found, and mentions that officers' czapkas were privately purchased so were of better quality and describes the decorations (pg.27).

For the sake of 4.50, perhaps purchase a copy and make your own mind up. Although, it is copyrighted 2012, so if you have any newer info from the last 6 years, then by all means share it with us and him so he can make newer edition. The price would be worth the colour prints alone.

http://www.thehistorybookman.webeden.co.uk/shop/4579739022/the-army-of-the-duchy-of-warsaw-1807-1814-w.-j.-rawkins/6718863

Mark
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John Cook
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« Reply #24 on: 06 March 2019, 10:14:13 PM »

Curious.  I am not sure what I would gain by purchasing a copy of Rawkins.  I have enough material of Polish origin, already mentioned, which is based on original research, such that buying a copy of Rawkins would hardly resolve the issue.  The only way to resolve it would be to look at primary material to which I dont have access.  Ill let you know in the unlikely event that I do, and learn Polish in the interim. 
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Sandyfalkirk
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« Reply #25 on: 06 March 2019, 10:22:05 PM »

Interesting topic sprung from the lovely looking sculpts.

Am I correct in saying though that we are better having the model as shown rather than in a bicorne?

There are other sculpts that have the bicorne on foot is there not but none with the czapka?

So interesting debate but surely not a problem in the slightest?
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John Cook
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« Reply #26 on: 06 March 2019, 11:23:24 PM »

Perhaps a little background might be helpfull.  When the Grand Duchy was established by the Treaty of Tilsit in 1807 the army, as such, did not exist and the various Polish legions and other units from which it would be formed wore their own distinctive, Polish style, uniforms which usually included a czapska. 

The 2nd March 1807 regulations, which actually predated the establishment of the Grand Duchy, prescribed a new uniform for the 12 regiments that formed the three new divisions of the army.  The uniform was apparently blue with distinctive facing colours for each division and a shako or a czapska for all ranks, depending on the source you have.  How long it took to issue this new uniform is a matter for speculation but it would not have been immediate I think. 

It is apparent that some units of the new army did wear the czapska but their origin is less clear, to me anyway.  They could have been items retained from uniforms of the old legions that now formed the army, or new issues who knows for sure?  That is purely conjecture on my part but it is evident from a variety of imagery that at least 4th, 7th, 8th, 9th and 11th Infantry Regiments wore shakos at one time or another during the period 1807-1809.  Interestingly, 8th is variously depicted with either a shako or a czapska.

What is also evident is that in 1808 the uniforms of the Polish infantry were still in a poor state.  In mid-1808 Davout selected the three best regiments for service in Spain but their uniforms were so badly worn that they had to be re-equipped, at least in part, with French kit.  This suggests to me that either the new uniforms were very poor quality they had hardly lasted much more than a year   or that the new uniform had yet to be issued.  The shako appears to have been worn in Spain and, Id guess, it was French issue. 

You are quite right, though, it hardly matters in the end and nobody can really gainsay you if you depict them in czapska or shako because it seem clear that both were worn.
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maciek
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« Reply #27 on: 14 March 2019, 11:23:45 AM »

Thanks to my friends I managed to find
graphic descriptions of officers in chapka.

Probably they wore it in 1707-08 campaign.
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Maciek

http://zealandbayonets.blogspot.com/
wargaming in 10mm

2015 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!
Zippee
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WWW
« Reply #28 on: 14 March 2019, 02:45:44 PM »

glad to see we've all had a good constructive chat in my absence.  Cheesy

Nice picture find Maciek

For clarity my guideline with the 1809 ranges was err to the earlier side and definitely central Europe - so although I'm fully aware that the 4th, 8th, etc that were dispatched to Spain were heavily re-uniformed and subsequently increasingly very French looking that wasn't relevant to the range under design. Likewise the uniform state of the early army is almost as notorious as the mud but I wasn't pushing a 'campaign dress' force [we've had this discussion before  Tongue ] so it is aspirational rather than accurate  Wink

Plus I wanted to maximise the differences where possible - so czapka for company officers just made them different from most officers.

I'm under the impression (no pictures and just second hand) that the 1812 Warsaw range has bicorn wearing officers if that's what you want - and I wanted the 1809 range to be distinct form that range in tone and feel
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John Cook
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« Reply #29 on: 14 March 2019, 04:52:37 PM »

Thanks to my friends I managed to find
graphic descriptions of officers in chapka.

Probably they wore it in 1707-08 campaign.


Gembarzewski p57.  On line here - you will be able to make far better use of it that I can!

https://www.dbc.wroc.pl/dlibra/publication/10484/edition/9391/content?
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