Tell Techno.

Started by Techno, 22 August 2018, 01:30:39 PM

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fsn

Ahhh! You missed the delights of "rh" and "ch" as well.

As someone who was forced to learn Welsh for many, many years, I remember the delights of a classroom of fellow oiks chanting "rh", "ch", "ll".

What finished me with Welsh was the horrible, horrible mutations. Apparently I scared the other children, but this was just as well as I couldn't cope with the apparently arbitrary changing of letters in the Welsh language. For example "llan" = "lake". "Mair" = "Mary" so you would think that "LLanmair" would be "Mary's Lake". No, no, no. Because it's a Wednesday or something equally Brythnotic, the "m" must be changed to a "f" (which isn't half a "ff" as you would think) and become "LLanfair".

Then after two years the Welsh teach retires and we get a new one who tells us we've been learning South Welsh which isn't proper in North Wales.

Techno, pass me the orange tablets. I'm having one of my turns. 

And there's more words for "no" in Welsh than Scotsmen have for "rain".
Lord Oik of Runcorn (You may refer to me as Milord Oik)

Oik of the Year 2013, 2014; Prize for originality and 'having a go, bless him', 2015
3 votes in the 2016 Painting Competition!; 2017-2019 The Wilderness years
Oik of the Year 2020; 7 votes in the 2021 Painting Competition
11 votes in the 2022 Painting Competition (Double figures!)
2023 - the year of Gerald:
2024 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

Techno

Quote from: fsn on 26 September 2018, 05:17:23 PM
Then after two years the Welsh teach retires and we get a new one who tells us we've been learning South Welsh which isn't proper in North Wales.

Techno, pass me the orange tablets. I'm having one of my turns. 

I haven't got any orange pills, Nobby.....The nearest I've got is a sort of pinkish 'hue'.
This pill has replaced the blue ones.

As for the North/South Wales....When we first moved here, I was chatting  to one chap who would definitely agree with you.
He was from South Wales....His wife was from North Wales.
They were both 'native' Welsh speakers, but had to speak to each other in English, as neither of them could understand the others Welsh.

Go figure.  ;D ;D

Cheers - Phil

fsn

Quote from: Techno on 26 September 2018, 07:28:21 PM
I haven't got any orange pills, Nobby.....The nearest I've got is a sort of pinkish 'hue'.
S'O.K.  I found  mine.

Lord Oik of Runcorn (You may refer to me as Milord Oik)

Oik of the Year 2013, 2014; Prize for originality and 'having a go, bless him', 2015
3 votes in the 2016 Painting Competition!; 2017-2019 The Wilderness years
Oik of the Year 2020; 7 votes in the 2021 Painting Competition
11 votes in the 2022 Painting Competition (Double figures!)
2023 - the year of Gerald:
2024 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

Leman

I think you'll find llan means parish and that llyn means lake. The mutation of Welsh letters is a result of the way the language flows. When a written grammar of Welsh was finally developed (centuries after it was first spoken) the mutations were included in the grammar. A similar approach in English has been very hit and miss, with the result, for example, that most people don't say I could have, but instead say I could of, which is technically incorrect,  but they then write it as that. It should be written could've but most English people can't be bothered to master the apostrophe. Consequently most twitter feeds look like only the completely ignorant use them. Doubtless someone will return with the now well worn comment about English is a living language and constantly changing and developing. Well, sorry, but to the educated such a person just comes across as a lazy moron who can't be bothered to learn the correct way to do something.
The artist formerly known as Dour Puritan!

Westmarcher

27 September 2018, 03:44:20 PM #94 Last Edit: 27 September 2018, 04:03:30 PM by Westmarcher
Quote from: Leman on 27 September 2018, 02:34:12 PM
Doubtless someone will return with the now well worn comment about English is a living language and constantly changing and developing. Well, sorry, but to the educated such a person just comes across as a lazy moron who can't be bothered to learn the correct way to do something.

Hear, hear! (.... and, of course, you'll get the odd one who spells it, "here, here."  #-o )

I'm no great grammar or spelling expert but one of the mis-pronunciations that irks me in my neck of the woods (Scotland) is in respect of the word, "definitely." This is nothing to do with the old Scots tongue. Often I hear "definetely" - sometimes "definately" - and once, recently, "definately."  ~X(

It's spelled with two "i"s, two "e"s (not three) and no "a."  So, my fellow Scots, please pronounce this, "definitely."  OK?
 
Another word is "sang-witch" (sandwich).

I also found it disappointing that one of the "could of" brigade includes a well known author and wargamer based in Edinburgh ... I mean, the guy is supposed to be well-educated ...

... mutter, mutter .....:-<

[rant over  :-[ ]
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.

Techno

Quote from: d_Guy on 26 September 2018, 05:00:10 PM
In our brief visits to Wales, we learned that "LL" is pronounced rather like clearing one's throat of phlegm. As one with post nasal drip, I was a natural!  :D

Hi, Bill....If I ever have to order something from a firm I haven't dealt with before....I have to spell my home address phonetically.......Either that, or I let them guess from my postcode, which one's my home addy.

Cheers - Phil....(Yep...Part of my home address is a throat clearing sound.) ;D ;D ;D


Ithoriel

Of course there are those of us who think the pedants are simply failing to recognise the ever-evolving, mutable nature of language.

Language is about belonging and "in groups" as well as communication. It would be a shame if it's diversity and change were strait-jacketed by arbitrary rules about "correct" usage.

Providing the target reader/ listener understands the writer/ speaker then it's "right" so far as I'm concerned.

But each to their own. A'ight? ;)
There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

Leman

I suppose you could therefore assert that not bothering to use an indicator, switching from one side of the road to another, going the opposite way round a roundabout is ok because the driver is developing his/her own way of doing things regardless of the rules. This developing language thing has always surprised me when uttered by someone who follows a hobby governed by rules. Language was standardised for a reason - so we understand exactly what someone is trying to say or write. The whole point of the book 'Eats shoots and leaves.' Also the really ridiculous Banana's 75p. Lucky old Canaan Banana having 75p to spend!
The artist formerly known as Dour Puritan!

Ithoriel

I doubt a missing Oxford Comma has caused many fatalities.

To be fair, the driving style you describe does seem to be prevalent in many parts of the world!

If it matters to you feel free to use the "correct" version, if it doesn't don't let others shame you for not following their rules.
There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

mollinary

Quote from: Leman on 27 September 2018, 05:53:28 PM
I suppose you could therefore assert that not bothering to use an indicator, switching from one side of the road to another, going the opposite way round a roundabout is ok because the driver is developing his/her own way of doing things regardless of the rules. This developing language thing has always surprised me when uttered by someone who follows a hobby governed by rules. Language was standardised for a reason - so we understand exactly what someone is trying to say or write. The whole point of the book 'Eats shoots and leaves.' Also the really ridiculous Banana's 75p. Lucky old Canaan Banana having 75p to spend!

'An indicator'?   Hmm.... Is that the thing that is automatically disabled when entering supermarket car parks, and is programmed to random direction flashing when on roundabourts?  I have often wondered what it is for!
2021 Painting Competition - Winner!
2022 Painting Competition - 2 x Runner-Up!

d_Guy

Picks up forum thread again. A multiple choice test. What to chose? In no particular order:

It's a sam'itch.

I have some orange pills if you need them, fsn. I don't remember what they do but that may not be a concern?

I live in a town whose pronounced name does not hint at the correct spelling.

The best Welch occasion was spending time in a pub near the Black Mountains when, after being recognized as ignorant hillbillies, the locals took delight in teaching us how to pronounce the unpronounceable. The beer and spittle flowed freely.

We had an existential philosopher/president once who parsed the meaning of "is"

Grew up with fingers being savaged with a ruler for the "its/it's" mistake. Went to grad school with Oxford commas ingrained, but soon learned to minimize when points were deducted for the unnecessary ones.

I play horseshoes with spelling and grammar.

Roundabout = clockwise, rotary = counterclockwise (directional notation that has lost meaning).

We call them "blinkers", our constabulary calls them "turn indicators". Their use is often cavalier and their meaning ambiguous.

My wife's car has side looking radar that alerts me to shopping carts and fast moving pigeons .

Everyone I encounter at the infrequent con says "Pendragon" when naming our beloved hosts.

Sleep with clean hands ...

Ithoriel

The car in front of you is a BMW.

The rear left turn indicator light is flashing.

What does that tell you?

...

...

...

At least one turn indicator bulb is working! :)

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

Westmarcher

All of this progressive thinking and not being "straight-jacketed by arbitrary rules" from you is heartening, Mike.

So, "Wendy houses" ......  :P  ;D
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.

Ithoriel

Quote from: Westmarcher on 27 September 2018, 11:07:34 PM
All of this progressive thinking and not being "straight-jacketed by arbitrary rules" from you is heartening, Mike.

So, "Wendy houses" ......  :P  ;D

I've always said that people were free to use Wendy Houses in their games if they wished but that I felt free to find that perplexing and amusing.

"Mankind will reach maturity on the day it learns to value diversity—of life and ideas. To be different is not necessarily to be ugly; to have a different idea is not necessarily to be wrong. The worst thing that could happen is for all of us to look and think and act alike." — Gene Roddenberry
There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

Norm

28 September 2018, 05:48:26 AM #104 Last Edit: 28 September 2018, 05:51:23 AM by Norm
I was watching a program some years ago about the migration of mankind using the out of Africa theory. They were looking at the progress of one route, that into Polynesia, a large area with islands spread apart that use different language. They used a formula that language evolves at the rate of 1% every 19 years to work out the rate of expansion.

So language evolving seems a natural occurrence, but I guess it happened to slowly and so locally in the past that it was never really noticed. In todays age of small world and instant media and every body having access to that media without having to go through an editor, the rate of change is so much more noticeable.

The nature of the internet means that often people are not using a native tongue when participating and the internet is a leveller, so that anyone, regardless of education / knowledge etc can participate and against that background, I'm not sure I like the idea of people being pulled up for phrasing things in a away that are not necessarily correct, yet remains understandable - especially when the person doing the pulling up clearly understands the message, it is all a bit condescending in my view - though I fully appreciate that the same actually accelerates the issue about deterioration and confusion in language.

Frankly, a lot of years have passed since I was at school learning the 'rules' of English and much of those rules have been forgotten. Do I care, well yes, it would nice to be fully articulate, do I care enough to do something about it - well no, not really, those around me seem pretty forgiving. My hand writing is now appalling (spell-checker has just told me there is no 'u' in appalling :-) ) because I only use a keyboard. I have a couple of friends who are ex- English teachers, so sometimes I run things through them first, before hitting the keyboard and attracting harsh stares!.