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Author Topic: Napoleonic  (Read 5033 times)
FierceKitty
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The dog is a peasant. The cat is a gentleman.


« Reply #30 on: 23 August 2019, 12:44:48 AM »

Indeed you need the complimentary opponents for any range.


Ones who praise your painting and terrain, and say "Well done!" sincerely when you pull a sneaky move?
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I have not the pleasure of understanding you. Of what are you talking?
Zippee
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« Reply #31 on: 23 August 2019, 08:16:10 AM »

Ones who praise your painting and terrain, and say "Well done!" sincerely when you pull a sneaky move?

 Grin
only seems to happen when playing solo
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Chad
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« Reply #32 on: 23 August 2019, 10:54:32 AM »

Not sure differentiating 1805/1806 from 1807 is necessary. 1805 Russians would be good for 1807 and 1806 Prussians would be similarly valid for 1807 if only a small force. (Lestocq at Eylau). Again bicorne French would probably be valid for Pultusk and Eylau if only in part, with shakos appearing throughout at Friedland.
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Zippee
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« Reply #33 on: 23 August 2019, 06:50:01 PM »

Not sure differentiating 1805/1806 from 1807 is necessary. 1805 Russians would be good for 1807 and 1806 Prussians would be similarly valid for 1807 if only a small force. (Lestocq at Eylau). Again bicorne French would probably be valid for Pultusk and Eylau if only in part, with shakos appearing throughout at Friedland.

But that wasn't what I said - given the choice of producing a French range in bicorns suitable for 1805 through 1806 maybe 1807 and producing a range of French in shako suitable for 1806/07 through 1812 the latter is clearly the sensible commercial decision.

As a result the commercial choice for Russia and Prussia is the late option.

Therefore the 1805-07 options kind of deselect themselves, or at best get left until after all other sub-periods are done. The only think rarer are Scadinavians and Turkish/Persian opposition for Russia
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John Cook
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« Reply #34 on: 23 August 2019, 10:35:15 PM »

Im not sure I have a dog in this fight .  I have no evidence to show what is commercial and what isnt except to say that, after WW2, the Napoleonic period has been the second most popular period for as long as I can remember and my wargaming memory goes back to 1963.  Everything else has always trailed behind these two periods.  Im fairly confident that any Napoleonic range would be at least as commercial as The Indian Mutiny.  I dont understand why Napoleonic 1805-1807 options are so difficult.  Is this a 10mm issue that Im not aware of?
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Chad
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« Reply #35 on: 24 August 2019, 08:48:31 AM »

John I dont think it is a fight as such, just a friendly discussion (I hope). The simple answer would be to run a non-Kickstarter as was done for the 1809 expansion to gauge the interest level and determine the commercial possibilities. Only two manufacturers at present have 10mm figures for 1805-1807 at present. The modelling for one is of average quality and for the other the Russian infantry is badly researched and simply wrong.
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Leon
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« Reply #36 on: 24 August 2019, 09:07:05 PM »

The simple answer would be to run a non-Kickstarter as was done for the 1809 expansion to gauge the interest level and determine the commercial possibilities.

I think this will be our method going forward with the Naps expansions.  It makes sure that what we're doing is viable, and also allows us to get large batches done in one go.
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Ben Waterhouse
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« Reply #37 on: 24 August 2019, 09:30:48 PM »

Chill Winston, I know that eventually P will even do Danish Riflemen...
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John Cook
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« Reply #38 on: 25 August 2019, 01:27:31 AM »

John I dont think it is a fight as such, just a friendly discussion (I hope). The simple answer would be to run a non-Kickstarter as was done for the 1809 expansion to gauge the interest level and determine the commercial possibilities. Only two manufacturers at present have 10mm figures for 1805-1807 at present. The modelling for one is of average quality and for the other the Russian infantry is badly researched and simply wrong.

Of course not, hence the inverted commas.  I suppose the two manufacturers you allude to would be Magister Militum and Old Glory, neither of which I am familiar with, in the context of their Russian Napoleonic's, enough to comment.  My present interest is confined to the early Peninsula. 
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FierceKitty
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The dog is a peasant. The cat is a gentleman.


« Reply #39 on: 25 August 2019, 02:49:22 AM »

Chill Winston, I know that eventually P will even do Danish Riflemen...

I thought Danes were entirely confined to, nay, defined by,  i) vikings; ii) sulky princes given to monologues; iii) sugary buns; iv) mermaids; and v) topless auxilliary traffic cops.
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Zippee
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« Reply #40 on: 25 August 2019, 09:16:16 AM »

Im not sure I have a dog in this fight .  I have no evidence to show what is commercial and what isnt except to say that, after WW2, the Napoleonic period has been the second most popular period for as long as I can remember and my wargaming memory goes back to 1963.  Everything else has always trailed behind these two periods.  Im fairly confident that any Napoleonic range would be at least as commercial as The Indian Mutiny.  I dont understand why Napoleonic 1805-1807 options are so difficult.  Is this a 10mm issue that Im not aware of?

Pretty sure there's no fight but I don't think we're moving the conversation forward either.

WWII, Napoleonics and Ancients are the three 'Big Periods' and it's always been the case that Romans (Anc), French (Naps) and Germans (WWII) are the big sellers in each. And within that it's Early Imperial Romans, 1812 French and Normandy Germans that sell more than anything else. It's just a wargaming popularity thing and is reflected in those being the most frequently produced ranges. The less popular ranges do eventually arrive, increasingly so in our modern 'Golden Age' but the trend persists.

It's absolutely not just a 10mm thing, it's all figure sizes. It's a general truism that the internet, KS and ease of small specialised business practice is eroding but it's still a general truism.

It's sad but less popular ranges don't get made [or even more commonly don't get fleshed out sufficiently and with opposition - I can think of a number of incomplete Rev War French ranges with no Austrian opposition because "there isn't the demand"] because they're less popular. Without availability those periods don't get played, ergo they remain less popular. It's a self-fulfilling spiral.

I'm not espousing 'make them and players will arrive' because I sadly think most players will continue following well-worn paths anyway. I just find it frustrating  :-

More positively, NON-KS would seem to be an excellent model for developing new and supplementary ranges. If there is a demand the customer will step up, if they don't then it's a reasonable conclusion that there isn't a wide spread demand. But, the range may still get made if one or two people buy-in sufficiently. That seems like a good way to get less popular periods into the arena.
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Chad
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« Reply #41 on: 25 August 2019, 12:09:08 PM »

Zippee

Agreed.

Just on the French Revolutionary Austrians, what scale are you referring to? I have 15mm and 28mm is presently growing.

Chad
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John Cook
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« Reply #42 on: 25 August 2019, 06:44:46 PM »

Zippee,  Of course there is no fight, hence, as I said, the inverted commas. 

The difficulties I have are manifold and Im unconvinced with with the arguments as to why Napoleonics arent viable, economic or whatever.  You may be right but it all seems to be based on perceptions, rather than any verifiable market research.

It seems to me that if French Napoleonics are big sellers, as you claim, and Im sure you are right, then their opponents must be equally big sellers, otherwise there are lots of people out there with no opponents for the French armies.  That makes no sense at all. 

I would like to see something concrete to persuade me that early Napoleonic ranges are not commercial.  I have both armies for Maida in 15mm which must date back to the 1990s.  So, some convincing market research, or something more than what seems to be little more than perceptions, seems necessary.

A quick look shows that at least four mainstream 15mm manufactures produce figures to cover the period from 1805 to 1815.  I couldn't be bothered to look at 25/28mm manufacturers.  So, have these people got it wrong?  If they havent, it is either a perception that early Napoleonics are not commercial, is incorrect or is an issue with 10mm (or a hypothesis I havent thought of).  I dont know which it is but I am confident it is one of them.  If I were to bet my pension Id go for perception since the two mainstream 6mm manufactures cover the entire period from 1803 to 1815 as comprehensively as it is possible to want (perhaps size is an issue after all).

For what it is worth, the last Wargames Illustrated poll resulted in the following:

WW2 31%
Napoleonic 13%
Sc-ifi 7%
Pike and Shot 7%
Dark Age 7%
Ancient 7%
Modern 6%
Fantasy 5%
American Civil War 4%
Colonial 4%
Medieval 3%
Horse and Musket 3%
American War of Independence 2%
WW1 1%

The non-KS route would certainly be an indication of commercial appeal, among people who use the Pendraken forum anyway.  Lets start with the Peninsula.   
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mad lemmey
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« Reply #43 on: 25 August 2019, 07:22:34 PM »

Eureka go earlier don't they?

Anyway, 1806 Prussians would be in my.list, if I could ever find a decent set of rules.
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Zippee
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« Reply #44 on: 25 August 2019, 07:57:42 PM »

Zippee,  Of course there is no fight, hence, as I said, the inverted commas. 

The difficulties I have are manifold and Im unconvinced with with the arguments as to why Napoleonics arent viable, economic or whatever.  You may be right but it all seems to be based on perceptions, rather than any verifiable market research.

Of cocurse its based on perception, there's little else to materially base opinion on.

And I never said Napoleonics are uncommercial - that would be patently absurd, it is one of the Big Three.

I'm mostly unfamiliar with 15mm and 28mm Napoleonic ranges in any detail but I am aware that there are early ranges available.  I suspect it is easier to be 'comprehensive' in 6mm and 10mm than the large scales - those uniform details start to increase the variety of sculpts required.

You'll note I specifically called out Rev War ranges in my last post. The two big 6mm options for instance whilst having a very comprehensive Napoleonic range (including French in bicorn) have either no Rev War range or one that consists of French only and the consistent response to "where are the Austrians?" has been "there's no demand for them, it's uncommercial" and that's not opinion, that's pretty much a direct quote from trying to drum up financial backing for an Austrian range to be created. The 10mm options likewise seem very limited - the only range that contains French and Austrians is Pendraken's which would be great if it also contained other essentials like artillery and cavalry . . .

Perception it may be but If I wanted to purchase forces for 1812, the Peninsular or 1815 I'd be spolit for choice in all scales. Start looking for comprehensive rages in the earlier periods and your options rapidly thin out and start looking for Rev War and it's very thin on the ground. Not impossible, so we no longer need to butcher Airfix miniatures by the thousand but there's a definite quantative difference.

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