Italian Wars of Independance - flags

[TinyTinTroops]

Flags for the Risorgimento

I'm trying to build a range of flags to go with the new figure range for the Risorgimento.

So far I have not been able to find a comprehensive source of information on the military flags used in the various campaigns of 1859-61 & 1866. I have found some information but, as I have so far been using only the Internet and a few Ospreys, it is in bits and pieces and sources seem to disagree at times.
It is not a period I am familiar with so a good, reasonably complete source, is what I'm looking for – preferably on the 'net but a book that is readily available would do too.
I need to know the flag designs and any common variants and how they were used in a battle (rather than on parade). By this I mean how the different designs (if there were more than one) were distributed to the battalions of a regiment. This may also involve battle honours (at least for the French) and any regimental devices or words used by specific regiments/units. Sizes would be useful too.
Principally I want the details of Infantry flags but cavalry flags would be useful too – particularly for those units that carried them into battle (not all did).
I have summarised below what I have already found and assumptions that I am currently making along with the gaps in my knowledge so far.

ANY information would be welcome, even on a single point discussed below or a reliable source.

France
The infantry flag shown on Warflag is the design that I am assuming is still current for 1859. It is very similar to the design I have seen for 1871.
What I have read is that it has the battle honours on the reverse by 1871 but I have found no source for those honours. Did flags in 1859 have honours on the reverse and, if not, what design was on the reverse ?

Austria
The flag given on Warflag is the best image I have so far for the leibfahne but I also found some useful notes on Austrian flags in the Austro-Prussian war and I'm assuming that the pattern 1859 was in use throughout the Risorgimento. If anyone knows better then please tell me.
There are references to Hungarian regiments having the Hungarian coat of arms in the centre of the eagle on either or both flags from 1806 onward but few sources seem to be certain of this and few examples of different Hungarian regiment flags appear in any illustrations I have found. Does anyone know if the 1859 pattern had different arms for German and Hungarian regiments ?
I am assuming Jaeger units did not carry colours in the field but I don't know whether Grenz units  did in this period; can anyone help ?

Piedmont/Sardinia
So far I have an image supposedly depicting Sardinian uniform and flags from the Crimean war but also I have seen text saying that the crown wasn't added to the tricolour flag until 1861. Other sources (the few I can find) don't mention the red flag with a white cross (Savoy flag) at all.
What I need to know here is;
When was the crown added to the flag – before 1859 or after (if after, when) ?
Did the red flag continue in use through 1859-66 ?
How were the two flags distributed in a regiment ?
Did either flag have any other devices/wording specific to a unit or did all units get the same flags ?

Kingdom of Naples/the Two Sicilies
I can find state flags for this period but nothing so far on their military units' flags. Can anyone provide me with some of the details or point to a reliable source for the designs and usage please.

Other Italian States
Any details/sources on the military flags of other states involved in any of the battles in Italy during the 1859-1866 period would be welcome as, so far, I have little or nothing on them.


Thanks for any help to get these in production

Tony of TTT

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

French flags did have honours on the reverse, mostly Sevastopol at this point!

[TinyTinTroops]

Do you know of an image on the 'net for the reverse of the flag ? I have the obverse but not the other side, I can make assumptions but would like them confirmed.

From what you say is it unlikely that older battle honours (e.g. Napoleonic) were not included ?


Thanks

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Camoronian or Mollinary will be along to confirm soon, no doubt, and as I'm several hundred miles away from my sources right now, I'm going from memory:
Top to bottom in all red and blue sectors, imperial crown, crossed diagonal design, wreathed N, another x, imperial eagle
Centre, wreathed eagle, Emperor Napoleon IIIer, unit name/number. Wreath
On the reverse, wreathed eagle, with battle honours from 2em empire
Guard had bees on there's too, but at 10mm way to small to see!

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

If you google French unit flags second empire, you will have some luck, just look carefully

[Glorfindel]

This site is quite useful for the French :

http://www.drapeaux.org/Accueil.htm

[mollinary]

Glorfindel's site is very useful for the French, and also seems to be accurate for the Italians. I have a book in Italian, picked up at Solferino, entitled 'L'Armata Sarda nella Seconda Guerra D'Indipendenza 1859' by Falco Verna. My Italian is not great, but I believe it states, on Page 38, that in 1855, the size of the Savoy shield in the centre of the flag no longer spread onto the green and red stripes, but merely touched them. In 1857 the size of the shield was further reduced, and a Royal Crown placed. above it. For the infantry both styles of flag were 1.44m square. There is nothing I can find which indicates whether any of the 1857 Designs had been issued by 1859. One can also deduce from the description of the changes in 1855, that before that date the flag was already a tricolour, but one in which the shield of Savoy was larger and impinged on all three stripes of the flag. 

For the Austrians Pendraken already do an excellent flag sheet which covers this period.

[TinyTinTroops]

Thanks for all that so far folks.

Mollinary - it looks like your source is fairly comprehensive so I'll go with that for the moment and add a crown. I just wish I could find the site on which I found the comment that the crown was added in 1860/61 because it also explained WHY, which might help double-checking the date. It may be that they said the change hadn't all filtered down to changing the flags before the war.

Does it mention (or does anyone else know) if the 2nd & 3rd Bn still used the white cross on Red or did they all have the tricolour (or did only the 1st Bn get a flag at all - like the French) ?

I do have a picture supposedly from the Crimean war that has the crown on the tricolour but also shows the red with white cross flag too - sadly no caption to explain though. It looks like that is in error.

I can't see the detail on the Austrian flag sheet but they do seem to be OK, the French 1970 sheet is, however, missing battle honours and I think I can do a replacement that will be more useful.

Keep it up folks, I'm getting closer with every post.

Tony of TTT

[mollinary]

Hi Tony,

The Italian flags seem simple, but I think are probably more complicated than we might suppose.  Re the Crown, before Italy became a United Kingdom Savoy was already a Kingdom, that of Sardinia. So there is no problem regarding a crown on the flag before Unification. However, I have seen two different crowns in my searches, one, with no red fittings and a rather floral shaped circlet. This is labelled as the Crown of Sardinia, although I have seen it on some flags attributed to the Italian army in the 20th century! The second crown is higher, has red plush fittings inside, and has white crosses of Savoy, lined red, on the circlet. This is labelled as the Royal Crown of Italy.  Nigel Smith's Armies of 1866 states that regiments only had one flag, but does not quote a source. Still looking.

[TinyTinTroops]

Mollinary

I have now had a reply from Fabio in Italy, he has helped Leon with info on the figure ranges coming soon and looks to have good access to Italian sources.

He says that it is only 1 flag per regiment and that the crowned shield only became 'official' in 1861 (which is what the source I can't find said) BUT it was unofficially in use before that. This seems to explain the apparent confusion in the sources on that front. I can't be sure when the flags for other Bn fell out of use but, if they were still in use in the Crimea, some regiments may have unofficially retained them in 1859.

The variations in the crown are, I'm guessing, part of the same issue and I'm reasonably sure that the floral, openwork crown is the 'official' one at that time. I suspect the other you describe may be a version combining the 'royal' crown of Sardinia and the 'ducal' crown of Savoy as it has features of both (from an heraldic viewpoint).

I'm now happy that I've got the Sardinian army covered, the basic French (except missing the honours for the guard units and zouaves) and the existing Austrian sheet is probably adequate unless someone tells me that Hungarian regiments had a different flag.

Anyone know any info about the other Italian states - so far I'm drawing a blank on those.

Thanks guys but keep it up, we're nearly there.

Tony of TTT

[abikapi2]

I've this book:

Italian Military Flags, from 1670 to 1870.

450 pages, 136 color illustrations.

If You need some Photos, I cand send them via email...

http://www.rodorigoeditore.it/prodotto/insegne-militari-preunitarie-italiane/

Stefano

[Ben Waterhouse]

I've got a complete set of Tradition that has a number of flags illustrations of the period including Modena, Naples, Papal States, Parma, Sardinia, Tuscany, if you want me to copy the relevant articles.

[TinyTinTroops]

Hi Stephano & Ben

Sorry for the delay in replying but we have been away for a few days at a family funeral.

Thanks for the offers, at the moment I'm absorbing the information from previous contributors and turning it into flag designs. I may well need your assistance if I hit problems but, at the moment, it looks like I might have what I need except for the following ...

Garibaldini flags : I have some black & white drawings with colour descriptions but I believe that they often had text on them as well and have only one example of that, more would be good and some colour illustrations always help.

It looks as if there was a switch from square flags to rectangular ones some time around 1860 (possibly a few years either side) in both Sardinian & Neapolitan flags but sources don't mention it except in illustrations and those are inconsistent. Any help on that would be very welcome.

I have included two different crowns for the later Sardinian flags as there seems to be a different design on every flag illustrated so some variety seemed appropriate. They are almost ready to go for printing.

French designs are done but still looking for battle honours for Guard regiments, have partial info but would like the rest. Can go with a 'best estimate' if necessary. They too could be done before the weekend.

Finally managed to finish the royal arms on the Neapolitan flag and have only to do the 'battalion' flags and they will be sorted. I'm waiting to see if I can confirm which of the two possible layouts (with or without the tricolour & square or rectangular) is most appropriate before doing the sheet layouts.

Still hoping to have at least something to Leon by the weekend, though not all sheets will be finished by then.

Tony of TTT

[mollinary]

Hi Tony,

The Guard Flags, issued on 20th March 1855, to the 1,2,3 Grenadiers, 1,2 Voltiguers, Zouaves carried an identical set of battle honours for all units. There were eleven battle honours, ranked one above the other, as follows:

Marengo
Ulm
Austerlitz
Iena
Friedland
Essling
Wagram
Smolensk
La Moscowa
Hanau
Montmirail

Best,

Andrew

[TinyTinTroops]

Hi Andrew

Great, all I have to do now is find a way of fitting all those on the flag. All other regiments seem to have been limited to 6 (though one seems to have 7). I have found a French website that lists all the battle honours for French infantry as of now but it doesn't include historical units such as the various Guards and sadly, no cavalry units.

I'll add those tonight, I've finished the 15 line regts I had started this morning.

Thanks

Tony of TTT