Difference between 1809 and 1812 figure ranges.

[Last Hussar]

You see that title? I'll let you work out what the thread is about.

Seriously, what are the differences?

[Westmarcher]

I must admit I haven't compared these either so cannot comment on the quality and size of the sculpted figures but would expect them to reflect the changes introduced by the 1812 Bardin regulations. For example, under the 1812 regulations, the coat became more of a double breasted jacket with short tails and gaiters no longer extended over the knee, stopping below the knee. The pre-1812 shako should also have a lozenge plate instead of an eagle though many non-regulation varieties existed. However, it wasn't possible to suddenly update every soldier's uniform and some units never got their uniforms until 1813 or 1814 so a mix of styles would not necessarily be out of place. 

[fsn]

Just widening that thought (without looking at the ranges) the British introduced the Belgic shako in 1812, the Russians that odd concave shako, the Spanish began to see the introduction of "British" type uniforms and as for the Prussians! Don't ask me about the Prussians.

I would say that the differeneces between the major combatants between 1809 and 1812 would be as significant as the difference between 1940 and 1944.

[SV52]

For pity's sake nobody ask about bricoles 

[Last Hussar]

I'm mostly interested in French (duh) Austrian and maybe Russian

[Dr Dave]

In 1812 the French see a big change under the Bardin reforms.

This sees the loss of the:
Lozenge style eagles and the introduction of the tricolour
Long thigh length infantry gaiters replaced by shorter knee height ones
Coat with big lapels goes and replaced by the song,e fronted coat with shorter tails and turn backs
Line Grenadier companies are officially stopped from wearing the bearskin - shakosf for all now
Line voligueur coys are officially stopped from wearing the colpack - sharks for all

Cavalry
French introduce same coat as infantry types for chasseurs and Dragoons
Line Lancers appear
Heavy carabiners get their white coats and helmets (had been dark blue and bearskins)

That's just off the top of my head...  by 1815 there's almost nowt of the pre-1812 uniform left.

[Last Hussar]

Does the 1809 stuff work for Austerlitz

[Zippee]

Does the 1809 stuff work for Austerlitz

The Austrians do mostly although you're lacking in Hungarian fusiliers in helmet. There are other minor distinctions in uniform to do with cut of coat and such but that's the main one.

The French do not - you need bicorn wearing long tailed coats for the French and legere in a mix of bicorne and side-plume shako. Much of the cavalry can do at a push but the infantry headgear is such a big stylistic change. .

And no Russians are available - the 1812 ones are not suitable, again completely wrong headgear. If there was an 1809 Russian range for the 'near-miss' engagements that never got beyond minor skirmish then yes it would be suitable for 1805

In general the 1812 uniforms across the board are distinct from the 1805-11 uniforms. The adoption of French style shako and uniforms across most of the Confederation and Italy exacerbate that. Austria moves from helmet to shako (in transition in 1809, hence Hungarians in shako), Russia moves from tall busch plumed cylindrical shakos to kiwer shakos and full packs, Britain moves from stovepipe to Belgic shako, Spain moves from chaotic to British supplied, Prussia moves from 18th century to 19th century. And that's just infantry headgear, there are similar sweeping changes in the cavalry and artillery as well. Not to mention the changes in formation and unit structure!

Overall in terms of uniform there are three broad eras within the period:
a) Revolution - 1792-1801. casques and bicornes, baggy long tailed coats
b) Early Empire - 1805-07, bicornes and helmets, fitted long tailed coats (somewhat complicated by the French changes in 1806, white uniforms and shako, etc)
c) Late Empire - 1812-15, bell topped shakos, short tail coats (increasingly reduced to trousers, greatcoat and box on head)

1809 happens mid transition, so you get long tailed coats and shako and Austria in helmet and shako
The Peninsular starts mid-transition and is also distinct in that as a side show peripheral campaign it doesn't update as frequently as the main event and retains older styles alongside patched homespun for longer

That said it should be recognised that authorisation of new equipment and actual implementation are two different things, so the French marched into Russia in 1812 overwhelmingly wearing uniforms closer in style to 1809 than the regulation Bardin issue. And as above the armies in Spain were always at the end of a stretched supply line and thus devoid of the latest fashions on the whole. Marmont I think it is with the quote from 1811 "finally the medley is over, no more white coats or bicornes" [paraphrased]


Personally, unless you are a perfectionist, I would recommend picking one era and building forces to match that so that they are 'authentic' but then freely use them to fight engagements set in other eras and theatres. Otherwise you're looking at 3 different armies for most participants to cover the entire period.

[Last Hussar]

Basically I'm torn between Austrians for 09 and Russians for 12.

I'm thinking 09 because I like the lozenge flag to the tricolour.

[Zippee]

Basically I'm torn between Austrians for 09 and Russians for 12.

I'm thinking 09 because I like the lozenge flag to the tricolour.

Well 1809 Austrians and French will give you good solid forces to which you can happily add an 1812 Russian force because only the most curmudgeonly type of wargamer will complain about them facing off against 1809 French or 1809 Austrians (the German fusiliers in helmets would be a bit anachronistic but otherwise you're fine - if Germans in shako and Hungarians in helmet were available it would be a complete 1798-1814 range basically). And the French have the lanciers and later carabiniers in their range already, so that's fine as well

And choosing based on which flag you prefer seems as good a way as any other - of course they should only be carrying eagles and fanions but where's the fun in that

[John Cook]

I'm mostly interested in French (duh) Austrian and maybe Russian

I haven't seen the ranges in the flesh, but there should be no differences in uniform as far as the French are concerned.  The so-called 1812 Bardin uniform, with the short habit-veste, wasn't in general use, if at all, in 1812.   

Even in 1813/14 the old uniform was still in use and I don't think the Bardin uniform was anything like universal until 1815. 

[Zippee]

I haven't seen the ranges in the flesh, but there should be no differences in uniform as far as the French are concerned.  The so-called 1812 Bardin uniform, with the short habit-veste, wasn't in general use, if at all, in 1812.   

Even in 1813/14 the old uniform was still in use and I don't think the Bardin uniform was anything like universal until 1815. 

Whilst technically correct from an authenticity perspective, every range I can think of takes the position of issue dates being absolute. Which from a production standpoint is fine and actually less confusing. 1809 French in long tail habits, 1812 in short tail habits. The buyer can choose which they want and which campaign to use them for.

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Am I allowed to say 'about three years' yet?

[paulr]

No

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Am I allowed to say 'about three years' yet?

Optimistic.....