Flodden To Fight Or Not To Fight?

Started by SV52, 10 May 2018, 07:48:36 PM

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SV52

Been thinking about this one for a while and finally got around to laying it out.







Now that I see it, looks like a pretty foregone conclusion really.  A couple of minor but necessary rule adjustments will make it more so; i.e. Scots pikes suffer a penalty for unfamiliarity with the new-fangled Euro pikes that the troops are only half trained to use and another penalty for loss of cohesion once in the marsh. The English billmen get a bonus for superior weaponry.

Maybe I'll fight a fictitous battle around the ford instead, substituting Scots cavalry for one of the pike blocks? Dunno, need to think about it.  Any suggestions?
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Ithoriel

If the Scots gunners could be persuaded to fire AT the English rather than over their heads, as they did in the actual battle, that might make a difference.
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SV52

Yup, that would have made quite a difference.
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Steve J

I remember seeing a local news piece on an ECW battle, where the cannons on the hill couldn't shoot downhill enough to hit the enemy as the cannonballs simply ran out! Maybe the same was true in this battle?

Reading the Wiki article on Flodden, the Scots appear to have had their leaders at the front, whilst the English at the back. Unsurprisingly the Scots lost a lot of their leaders early on. So maybe the Scots fight in the new style as per the English as manage to keep their leaders alive for longer for better C&C. Also, the Scots don't advance down the hill and simply wait for the English.

Techno

Looks a damn fine set up !!  8)

Cheers - Phil

SV52

The Scots are between a rock and a hard place here.  If they stay put then they'll get shot to pieces by the English artillery (lighter so easier to move) and the archers.  To be fair a contemporary account said thet the archers' fire had little effect on the Scots front ranks as they were too well armoured, not so however on those behind).

I gather that the problem with the Scots artillery was that the enemy didn't show up where he was supposed to, i.e. at the ford.  The artillery had been emplaced on Flodden Hill to cover the ford and the approaches.  As Surrey unsportingly preferred not to commit suicide, he ended up placing his army between James and home.  The new position rendered the Scots artillery useless as it could only fire over the enemy and the guns were too big, heavy and well dug in to move.

The only way home is through Surrey's army.

I think I will fight this out of pure interest.  Use Hordes of the Things (HOTT) rules with a few mods, easy and straightforward and it caters for all arms.
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d_Guy

I had admired your armies before and good to see them set up for a game. Continue to admire your hex terrain.
With 500 years of hindsight:

  • recall that your entire strategic purpose is to force Henry and his army out of France to deal with your threat
  • Fire your French military advisors
  • Drop the pikes and pavesse and leave them with the guns to distract the English
  • Move South like a horde of locust
  • Take English wives
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SV52

- Rats, we've invaded the wrong country.
- If I could find 'em (bunch of surrender monkeys)
- Put straw dummies on the hill and sneak past 'em in the night - now yer talkin'
- Bin doin' that, look where it got us
- Worse option than fightin' Surrey

:d
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SV52

This is the strategy adopted:



Left and right wings move round to attack English flanks, should minimize damage from artillery.  Remainder will attack straight across the bad ground (two turns to contact, right wing hopefully the same) with the reserve following up to reinforce where required. Left wing archers will move to each flank of the pikes, anticipate three turns before the infantry make contact, archers can shoot if in range during this. All movement must be simultaneous to prevent as much as possible the English right wing infantry assisting Dacre's cavalry in their inevitable attack.  The main body attack can expect to suffer heavy casualties.  With kind dice, the Scots may scrape a Pyrrhic victory.
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Womble67

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SV52

All over now, this is the position after 10 turns:



A decisive Scots victory, they lost one unit, the English lost thirteen.

Who would have thought it? Mind you anrule flaw and faulty deployment helped.
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d_Guy

Excellent!
The downside is "Flowers of the Forest" doesn't get composed.
Sleep with clean hands ...

SV52

Glad you liked it.  I'll probably do a revised version, see if the outcome is the same...sometime.
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lowlylowlycook

A very nice looking little battle.

SV52

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