The 45

Started by Duke Speedy of Leighton, 09 May 2018, 08:03:19 AM

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Duke Speedy of Leighton

Hi all,
I've recently backed Iain from Warflags rather splendid Kickstarter for Jacobean Scots, and wanting to play more Black Powder, away from 1870.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/553354256/28mm-1745-jacobite-rebellion-miniatures?ref=user_menu
and then realised three salient points:
1) I have no idea about this period at all.
b) It means painting more tartan
iii) I hate lists
4) It's 28mm.
So, gentlemen, where (apart from Outlander) do I start?
You may refer to me as: Your Grace, Duke Speedy of Leighton.
2016 Pendraken Painting Competion Participation Prize  (Lucky Dip Catagory) Winner

cameronian

Read Duffy's book on the '45 (old and revised editions), also my old pal Murray Pittock published 'Culloden' recently which I have and highly recommend. Fitzroy McLeans 'The '45' is good also.
Don't buy your daughters a pony, buy them heroin instead, its cheaper and ultimately less addictive.

Duke Speedy of Leighton

Thanks Cameronian
You may refer to me as: Your Grace, Duke Speedy of Leighton.
2016 Pendraken Painting Competion Participation Prize  (Lucky Dip Catagory) Winner

Steve J

Duffy's 'Fight for a Throne; the '45 Reconsidered' is the place to start. '1745 A Military History' by Stuart Reid is also an excellent book.

SV52

Nerd alert:  :-B.

'Jacobean' is not the same as 'Jacobite'.  The former refers to the era of James VI and I 1567–1625.  The supporters of the 'Old and Young Pretenders', roughly 1688 to 1746 were Jacobites, referring to the Latin version of the deposed king James' name.

Where this is of some relevance is that if you order 'Jacobean' figures from someone, you won't get those for the '45, but something entirely different.
"The time has come, the walrus said..."

2017 Paint-Off - Winner!

pierre the shy

Hiya Lemmey

Depending on the scale (skirmish/tactical/large scale action) that you intend to play Test of Battle do a very comprehensive 2 volume Jacobite Rebellion campaign written by Frank Chadwick

http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RU-04
http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RU-05

Quite a bit of background information as well as uniform and organisational details for both sides, including the French and Dutch units involved in the campaign. They are intended for their Volley and Bayonet rules, but they are easily adopted to other rulesets as well.

Cheers
Peter





 
Though much is taken, much abides; and though
we are not now that strength which in old days
moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are.

Duke Speedy of Leighton

Quote from: SV52 on 09 May 2018, 09:50:59 AM
Nerd alert:  :-B.

'Jacobean' is not the same as 'Jacobite'.  The former refers to the era of James VI and I 1567–1625.  The supporters of the 'Old and Young Pretenders', roughly 1688 to 1746 were Jacobites, referring to the Latin version of the deposed king James' name.

Where this is of some relevance is that if you order 'Jacobean' figures from someone, you won't get those for the '45, but something entirely different.
Ohhh thanks

You may refer to me as: Your Grace, Duke Speedy of Leighton.
2016 Pendraken Painting Competion Participation Prize  (Lucky Dip Catagory) Winner

Duke Speedy of Leighton

Quote from: pierre the shy on 09 May 2018, 11:28:18 AM
Hiya Lemmey

Depending on the scale (skirmish/tactical/large scale action) that you intend to play Test of Battle do a very comprehensive 2 volume Jacobite Rebellion campaign written by Frank Chadwick

http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RU-04
http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RU-05

Quite a bit of background information as well as uniform and organisational details for both sides, including the French and Dutch units involved in the campaign. They are intended for their Volley and Bayonet rules, but they are easily adopted to other rulesets as well.

Cheers
Peter
 
Now that is a great pointer, thanks Pierre
You may refer to me as: Your Grace, Duke Speedy of Leighton.
2016 Pendraken Painting Competion Participation Prize  (Lucky Dip Catagory) Winner

cameronian

Quote from: pierre the shy on 09 May 2018, 11:28:18 AM
Hiya Lemmey

Depending on the scale (skirmish/tactical/large scale action) that you intend to play Test of Battle do a very comprehensive 2 volume Jacobite Rebellion campaign written by Frank Chadwick

http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RU-04
http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RU-05

Quite a bit of background information as well as uniform and organisational details for both sides, including the French and Dutch units involved in the campaign. They are intended for their Volley and Bayonet rules, but they are easily adopted to other rulesets as well.

Cheers
Peter





 

Dutch ?
Don't buy your daughters a pony, buy them heroin instead, its cheaper and ultimately less addictive.

Steve J

I imagine the 'Dutch' units are referring to the British units brought back from Holland/Flanders.

Westmarcher

09 May 2018, 10:00:21 PM #10 Last Edit: 09 May 2018, 10:03:08 PM by Westmarcher
Think they were actual Dutch units that had been part of the garrison of some fortress* in the Austrian Netherlands that had surrendered with full Honours of War. The catch was that they had to give their parole that they would not take up arms against France again during the present unpleasantness. However, with Britain short of troops to meet the Jacobite threat, they were therefore conveniently available for shipping over to the UK to re-inforce the Government forces at home. What they would have done if the had met the Royal Ecossais, I don't know.  :-B

* can't recall which fortress or where I read this - likely Osprey's Culloden or Fontenoy(?)
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.

Westmarcher

Quote from: Westmarcher on 09 May 2018, 10:00:21 PM
Think they were actual Dutch units that had been part of the garrison of some fortress* in the Austrian Netherlands that had surrendered with full Honours of War. The catch was that they had to give their parole that they would not take up arms against France again during the present unpleasantness. However, with Britain short of troops to meet the Jacobite threat, they were therefore conveniently available for shipping over to the UK to re-inforce the Government forces at home. What they would have done if the had met the Royal Ecossais, I don't know.  :-B

* can't recall which fortress or where I read this - likely Osprey's Culloden or Fontenoy(?)

Tournai. After the defeat at Fontenoy (11 May 1745), the Dutch garrison at Tournai surrendered on 19 June. The terms of the capitulation meant they could not take up arms against France or her allies until 1 January 1747 and so they were eventually sent to England to release British troops for active service either on the Continent or ultimately against Bonny Prince Charlie.
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.

Ithoriel

From "Cumberland's Culloden Army 1745–46"
© Osprey Publishing
www.ospreypublishing.com


"The Dutch
Aside  from  the  16-strong  troop  of  Hungarians  and  Germans  who formed the Duke of Cumberland's personal bodyguard, there were two
major foreign contingents serving alongside the British army during the campaign.  The  first  was  Dutch,  provided  under  a  treaty  of  mutual
assistance  between  Great  Britain  and  the  United  Provinces,  which obliged  each  to  come  to  the  aid  of  the  other  in  case  of  threatened  or
actual invasion. The previous year a Dutch contingent had already spent some  time  in  England  in  anticipation  of  a  French  invasion  that  never
came.  They  had  returned  to  Holland  in  June  1744,  but  in  response  to the  actual  Jacobite  emergency  in  1745  a  fresh  contingent  was
demanded.  Unfortunately  the  situation  in  Flanders  was  equally precarious, as the French steadily exploited their victory at Fontenoy in
May, and the only regiments that could be spared were those that had been  paroled  after  the  surrender  of  Tournai,  on  condition  of  not
fighting against the French army or its allies for 12 months. Commanded   by   Prinz   Moritz   of   Nassau,   who   apparently   still
considered himself under a cloud after rendering up the fortress, and by MajGen  Carol  Diederik  Schwanenburg,  the  contingent  comprised  five
Dutch regiments – Braekel, Holstein-Gottorp, Tissot van Patot, Villattes,and  La  Rocque, each  of  two  battalions  –  and  a  Swiss  regiment,  Hirtzel,
with  three  battalions,  together  with  a  contingent  of  artillerymen  but  no cavalry.  Some  of  the  Dutch  units  were  originally  landed  in  the  Thames
near  London,  but  eventually  all  were  concentrated  at  Newcastle  upon Tyne, where they formed a major part of Field Marshal Wade's army. The
Dutch regiments appear to have been quite weak; originally reckoned to be 9,000 strong at the commencement of the siege of Tournai, only 5,300
men  had  marched  out  on  9  June.  Allowing  for  artillery  and  other ancillary  personnel,  this  would  imply  an  average  strength  of  just  under
400 men per battalion, although there are indications that the three Swiss battalions may have been stronger than their Dutch counterparts.
Initially they were welcomed, especially at Berwick, where one of the battalions  of  the  Regiment  La  Rocque  stiffened  the  rather  lonely
garrison of 5 companies of Lee's 55th Foot. However, once the novelty wore  off  they  soon  began  to  be  compared  unfavourably  with  British
troops,  though  opinion  was  divided  as  to  whether  the  Dutch  or  Swiss were  worse.  In  part  this  was  due  to  their  poor  physical  condition;  they
lacked shoes, and initially even horses for the general officers, let alone any  more  substantial  logistic  support.  Consequently,  they  were  soon
being  accused  of  robbery,  riot  and  affray;  they  were  also  blamed  for  a quite understandable lack of enthusiasm when Wade's attempted march
across the Pennines foundered in deep snow at Hexham. Sickness was also  rife  amongst  them,  and  by  11  December  they  were  down  to  just
2,500 effectives.

Ultimately, however, a far more serious problem was their legal status. From  the  very  beginning  the  French  government  had  protested  about
their  employment  against  the  Jacobites,  especially  as  by  the  Treaty  of Fontainbleu on 5 November 1745 the rebels were formally declared to
be French auxiliaries. In early December, when Lord John Drummond arrived  in  Scotland  at  the  head  of  a  small  French  expeditionary  force,
one  of  his  first  acts  was  to  send  a  letter  to  Nassau  demanding  the immediate  withdrawal  of  the  Dutch  contingent.  At  first  Nassau  and
Schwanenberg  were  inclined  to  disregard  the  French  demands,  or  at least (as Schwanenberg offered) to continue serving as garrison troops
at  Newcastle  upon  Tyne;  but  in  the  end  it  was  decided  to  honour  the letter of their parole terms and send the Dutch home – in the same ships
that brought their replacements, a contingent of Hessian troops." -


There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

pierre the shy

Quote from: mad lemmey on 09 May 2018, 12:49:00 PM
Now that is a great pointer, thanks Pierre

I have both volumes and they are very good, but ended up going for 1645 period rather than 1745.

Thanks to those who outlined the Dutch participation in the rebellion.

Though much is taken, much abides; and though
we are not now that strength which in old days
moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are.

d_Guy

Quote from: pierre the shy on 10 May 2018, 08:30:23 AM
I have both volumes and they are very good, but ended up going for 1645 period rather than 1745.

As have I, while 1745 is MUCH better documented, 1645 has greater scope.  :)
Sleep with clean hands ...