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Author Topic: Aztec warfare queries  (Read 915 times)
TinyTinTroops
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« on: 15 April 2018, 02:19:00 PM »

Hi Folks

Iíve been considering the new 10mm Aztec range. I have no great desire to start a new period en-masse but I do really fancy painting these in small numbers but my knowledge of Aztec warfare is limited so I have some queries.

Can anyone offer advice on which figures might work for Mixtec/Zatopec, Tarascan and Purempecha (Chichimec) armies Ė particularly the latter, as no Ďwarriorí archers are included in the range. Any Pendraken range or compatible manufacturer would do. Iím aware of some similarities between the armies (in appearance at least) but there still seem to be gaps when the similarities are taken into account (including bowmen as mentioned above and also shield bearers with large rectangular shields).

As it doesnít fit in with any other period I do at present I need some rules. I have found some dating back a while that seem to be a bit of a fusion between DBA & DBR (New World DBA) but would like something a bit more focussed on the native warfare as I have no interest in adding Spanish to the mix.

Iím looking for small battle / large skirmish type, multiple figure bases and some good Ďflavourí. Iím not interested in individual based skirmish rules or any that require tons of figures but somewhere between the two. Ideally they would be specifically written for early South American warfare but canít find any such beast so probably have to manage with a non-specific set.

Tony of TTT

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Tony Hughes of Tiny Tin Troops

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fred.
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« Reply #1 on: 15 April 2018, 07:07:46 PM »

For rules Iíd recommend Irregular Wars. Focused on this era, mainly on European exploration, but would work for native vs native.
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GrumpyOldMan
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I'm all ears!!


« Reply #2 on: 15 April 2018, 10:42:04 PM »

For rules Iíd recommend Irregular Wars. Focused on this era, mainly on European exploration, but would work for native vs native.

Wot 'e said.

Also all lists are included. Ideal numbers and mechanics for your target game.

Battle report here - http://irregularwars.blogspot.com.au/2015/06/irregular-wars-aar-spanish.html
« Last Edit: 15 April 2018, 10:46:18 PM by GrumpyOldMan » Logged
TinyTinTroops
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« Reply #3 on: 16 April 2018, 01:35:23 PM »

While I may buy a copy of IW for a project a mate has been chuntering on, I don't see them as a solution to rules for this project.

IW is essentially a set of colonial rules and they rarely take natives seriously, confirmed by there being only 1 native troop type and the rest being European. Ignoring all the random stuff the basic engine isn't that innovative but, as is usual with Nic's stuff, it will be well presented and explained.

I'm coming to the conclusion that the elusive set of rules actually written with Meso-American warfare in mind simply doesn't exist so I'll have to be satisfied with something more generic - or write some.

Now all I need is some info on the figures - looks like that may be a blank too.

Thanks guys

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Tony Hughes of Tiny Tin Troops

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Terry37
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« Reply #4 on: 16 April 2018, 04:55:37 PM »

Tony

I have a conquest army using DBA-HX written to 2.2. and have had some really fun games with them. It gives this army list for the natives.

61 Mexican Armies, 1485-1530. E=60. 3x4Bd or 3Aux, 3x3Aux, 3x3Aux or 4Bw, 3x2Ps.

However, I would see some of them as Warband, especially the cuahchic warriors.

Also, another thing to consider is that Meso-American natives also used great numbers of slingers for missile troops, and probably more than they did bowmen, with the exception of  maybe the Tlaxcallans. I would think any slinger figure in a loincloth would work, but you may need to modify the hair to being straight and cut in a pageboy.

Shield patterns can be a lot of fun and the best source for finding them is to search for the various codex of the period as they are a wealth of information.

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1MKDC_enUS771US771&biw=1920&bih=949&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=h8XUWvfXKsqbzwK76JSwDA&q=mesoamerican+codex&oq=mesoamerican+codex&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0.186394.187428.0.189996.5.5.0.0.0.0.60.280.5.5.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.5.280...0i30k1j0i8i30k1.0.YT4iNt5lDe8

Always been a favorite theater and certainly a very colorful one. I have been toying with doing a HOTT army with the Eagle warriors as Flyers, and the Jaguar warriors as beasts, then some Shooters, and Warbands, with a few Hordes of the newest troops. Plus look at some of their mythology to see what other creatures I might be able to bring into it.

Terry
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TinyTinTroops
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« Reply #5 on: 16 April 2018, 06:44:01 PM »

Hi Terry

There is quite a mix of army lists in DBA3 - mostly very similar to the one you give but with more specific variations for different tribes.

Some bowmen would be just spiky/long or feathered hair and loincloth but at least two tribes had 'proper' warrior classes armed with bows and melee weapons (I think this was a fairly late development but not really sure - many of the internet sources contradict each other on details). Ideally some guys in quilted cotton with bows or even a cloak or something like a poncho. I'm OK painting 10mm but not very good at conversions so the closer I can get the better.

I have done a vaguely Meso-American HotT army in 6mm and used one of the 10mm flying lizards from Magister Militum as Quetzalcoatl.

Tony
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Terry37
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« Reply #6 on: 16 April 2018, 06:53:09 PM »

Hi Tony,

It's probably been a good ten years or more since I did all of my research to build my army. I still have the codex I used, as some are bound and sold as books, plus untold amounts of time researching on the net.  I was a big DBA gamer until they changed to 3.0 and they lost me at that point, but I have a copy and might look at the army lists.

I would be very interested in which figure you used for Quetzalcoatl if you know the catalog number.

I will follow your progress as I have always been a fan.

Oh, and although you are not interested in doing the Spanish involvement, if you want a good read and account of their involvement I highly suggest "The Conquest of New Spain" by Diaz. he was a member of Cortes's army.

Terry
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fred.
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« Reply #7 on: 16 April 2018, 07:13:11 PM »

IW is essentially a set of colonial rules and they rarely take natives seriously, confirmed by there being only 1 native troop type and the rest being European. Ignoring all the random stuff the basic engine isn't that innovative but, as is usual with Nic's stuff, it will be well presented and explained.

I'm not sure that would be my take on the rules or the lists. There are many native army lists, yes their is only one 'native' special rule, but there are many native troop types represented. I'm sure if you are wanting to focus on meso-american wars then you will want to add more detail, but I suspect that would be true of any army lists.

With the IW rules, I think the way the whole game fits together is very good, and their are a number of innovative ideas - the auto wounding for flanking is one, and its one we've pinched for our home brew rules.
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TinyTinTroops
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« Reply #8 on: 16 April 2018, 09:17:04 PM »

Hi Terry

I think it was Quetzalcoatlus - this just fit on a 40mm wide base.

https://www.magistermilitum.com/era/pre-historic/din93-quetzalcoatlus-x1.html

but there is at least one larger one of similar type

https://www.magistermilitum.com/era/pre-historic/din141-hatzegopteryx-standing-x1-11153.html

Tony



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Tony Hughes of Tiny Tin Troops

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TinyTinTroops
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« Reply #9 on: 16 April 2018, 09:20:13 PM »

Hi Fred

You may be right but I don't have the rules and all I could find on the 'net supported that hypothesis.

As I said though, I'll probably get the PDF so I won't dismiss them out of hand.


Tony

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Tony Hughes of Tiny Tin Troops

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Ithoriel
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« Reply #10 on: 16 April 2018, 09:34:54 PM »

Quetzalcoatl - The Plumed Serpent



Modern incarnations tend to show Quetzalcoatl as a winged serpent



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Terry37
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« Reply #11 on: 17 April 2018, 05:04:59 AM »

Here is another way Quetzalcoatl could be represented, and one I am considering. I game in 15 MM, but for this figure I'd use a 28 MM figure and would probably have to do it is a conversion. But I am not committed yet and am looking at various dragon figures to convert. Probably have to take the dragon snake body and add the wings up to just behind his head, as that seems how he is usually depicted, and add some extra pluemage. Also, his wings are wide, but not overly long. Would make a fun project and a delight to paint!



Tony, thanks for sharing which figure you went with. Hope you painted him very colorfully!

Terry
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fsn
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« Reply #12 on: 17 April 2018, 08:29:23 AM »

I tend to think of Quetzalcoatl as a giant Axolotl.

Devouring souls ... but with a smile.
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Lord Oik of Runcorn
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Ithoriel
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« Reply #13 on: 17 April 2018, 09:48:18 AM »

The old GW Coatl would be ideal but prices on EvilBay are astronomical.

I have one that's being used as a mount for a Skink hero in my Warmaster Lizardman army.
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toxicpixie
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« Reply #14 on: 17 April 2018, 12:15:07 PM »

You might find these suggestions for Lion Rampant useful - http://ilivewithcats.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/quetzalcoatl-rampant.html

I've an army pack of Aztecs I was going to sort for them, 1-3 figures on a 20mm base, possibly either just use 12 bases per unit as the rules are written at full scale, or treat each figure as one figure and go to CM's (using the 1/2 figure bases to "break change" for losses), to allow me to use less figures and a small table at the club.
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