Warsaw Pact cammo

Started by Heedless Horseman, 20 March 2018, 02:48:58 AM

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Heedless Horseman

Curious... did Warsaw Pact AFVs use much cammo netting? Brit stuff, (from pics and memory), seemed to vary from bare a***d, (probably on ranges), to mobile shrubbery.
Most pics of Eastern Block tanks show them bare...but most photos are propaganda shots...with prominent I.D numerals, etc.
If Warsaw Pact AFVs were netted, like Brit, they would look so much more interesting and it could strengthen gun barrels...I have become a fan of applying fine sand as cammo...looks ok to me!
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Aksu

Hmm, good point. I am sure others have more info than me, I have only seen a few pics of NVA tanks with some shrubbery, almost all tanks are bare.  Could it be that they are mostly of tanks on offensive maneuvers, where presumably the camo netting or foliage would be of no use? There must be a reason, as maskirovka at all levels was a key concept in the red army.
Cheers,
Aksu

fsn

Don't think I've ever seen a T54/55/62/72 under cammo netting. (Maybe the camouflage is that good?)

I think Aksu's right. Cammo is best used in defence.
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Orcs

When your coming en-mass across the German border I would suspect that individual Camo is not that relevant
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Aksu

The only examples so far that I've seen have been of tanks in river crossing exercises, NVA with bushels of straw -looking beige foiage and soviet T-72s with a few forlorn branches. Maybe those chaps have had to wait stationary for a bit and put on some local foliage.
I suppose the valiant eagles of the air forces and the organic flak assets make camouflage unnecessary ;)
Aksu

toxicpixie

Watched some WarPac exercise videos a few weeks back - most were sans "extra" camo, but a lot had some form of greenery on and some were absolutely festooned. They made a big play of how awesome their camo abilities were, which when stationary was right. When moving the "ambulatory bushes" stood out more than the "mildly cammo'd" or camo free ones :D

I wonder if it's like the "camo paint schemes" all WarPac vehicles were going to get on their way out the barracks gates when WW3 started. They decoy you with plain green, no camo skills, then fake you out with tracked bushes infiltrating past your positions. Or not, as I suspect if the balloon went up whatever could roll would be fighting before anyone had time to pick up a paint brush or some greenery...
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Sunray

When WP armour were lying up in the FUP or in leaguer for the night, they usually - if possible found a wooded area  and cut/attached foliage with string.   In the morning, they tended to drive off with the foliage which was quickly shed .

The Soviet doctrine for camouflage  is "Maskirovke" - an intense tactical discipline based on Soviet deep battle defence. And yes,  :)the Soviets did have (and Russians still have) a  camouflage netting system known as MKT - nets 12 meters x 18 meters
MKT L is summer,MKT T is transparent, MKT-S is winter.   Armoured units have Shater nets - again 12 x18. 

I would stress these were only deployed in defensive positions.  :)

 



There is a good Vanguard publication on Cold War cammo patterns.   I think cammo paint stopped when the reactive armour plates arrived on the scene.   

Subedai

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Sunray

Quote from: Subedai on 22 March 2018, 08:15:41 PM
Just found this, don't whether it helps.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a112903.pdf

Yes,  a very good US primary source ! NATO G2,  same source as BAOR was briefed from, I see a lot of familiar terms and descriptions.  Later NATO manuals had images of the nets, and copies of manuals.

A very useful read. Look at the way Soviets concealed entire routes from the air.   Thermal Imaging was the game changer. 

In most war games we have WP on offensive. But they also trained extensively on defending Mother Russia.  After all we were portrayed as decadent capitalist aggressors- part of the motivational mind games.     

Steeleye

As I remember it the Soviet idea of defensive tactics was to retreat faster than the enemy could advance and then counter-attack! The old Cold War Soviets were all about the 'Attack' defense as Nato would do it was considered a very temporary thing.

toxicpixie

Quote from: Steeleye on 09 April 2018, 04:23:59 AM
As I remember it the Soviet idea of defensive tactics was to retreat faster than the enemy could advance and then counter-attack! The old Cold War Soviets were all about the 'Attack' defense as Nato would do it was considered a very temporary thing.

Not quite - they were happy to fix and hold, but that was temporary in that if NATO was attacking at Y, then other Soviet units would be driving past them at X and Z and therefore not only would their attack peter out but they'd be pocketed and bagged.

They recognised in the early eighties that that was no longer likely - things like multiband frequency hopping radio comms meant their EWO was rendered useless whilst NATO could home in directly on their previously hidden CPs and then strike them dead with precision munitions, whilst the focus on an all round "no flanks" 3d air-land battle on NATO's part with highly responsive and flexible command from a very low level would see WARPAC formations fumble blindly around and fall apart in short order (doubly so as they also recognised the new generation of NATO tanks were essentially invulnerable to any battlefield weapons systems they had).

The generals who pointed that out publicly all "retired" and went off to count trees, but not coincidentally spending on their nuclear deterrent suddenly spiked and became No.1 priority. And then they got faked out with Star Wars and conned into thinking the nukes were not relevant either (or wouldn't be very shortly) and couldn't afford a THIRD simultaneous arms race where they were lethally behind in all three.
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