Napoleonic "Counts as"/stand ins

Started by Sandyfalkirk, 06 January 2018, 09:52:24 PM

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Sandyfalkirk

Hi folks,

*
Really wondered if you can help me.

I've tested some other ranges (OG and Lancer) and am very 'meh' about them. I really like the pendraken sculpts, I find them easy and satisfying to paint.

That being said, despite a great range like everyone else, I want more.

I am ok with uniforms but I am no expert and am trying to figure out what nations for the Napoleonic range can be used for other troops.

So for example, could one use the Austrian Uhlans for Polish Lancers?

What about 1809 French Mounted Carabiners for Grenadiers a cheval?

How would I do Wurttemberg or Baden 1809? Can any Bavarians or Austrians be used for them?

Chasseurs a Cheval of the Guard?

I'd really appreciate any input. It might be helpful if there were some other pointers.

For example, some models can be used for other nations without any changes other than paint job. But presumably to do something like the Polish Guard Light Horse that would mean some cutting/green stuff?

Any suggestions really appreciated.



*I tried some searches on this topic and did not get any hits. Perhaps I am asking the wrong question....

Duke Speedy of Leighton

Hello and welcome, not my period, but I do know someone who used the 1870 French Lancers as Guard Lancers...
You may refer to me as: Your Grace, Duke Speedy of Leighton.
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paulr

Welcome Sandyfalkirk :-h

Also not my period I'm afraid :(
But I'm sure there will be some more knowledgeable types along shortly
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d_Guy

I'm the third to answer by saying this is not my area either, Sandyfalkirk,  but I expect some more knowledgeable folks will be along directly. Did want to welcome you to the forum. It is a useful and cheerful place.
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Techno

Welcome !

Quote from: paulr on 06 January 2018, 11:00:56 PM
I'm sure there will be some more knowledgeable types along shortly

And I'll second Paul's comment.

Cheers - Phil

fsn

Welcome Mr Falkirk.

I love your Kelpies.

To answer your questions one would need to know how much work you want to put into them, how good your modelling skills are and how accurate you want the outcome to be.

For me does it have the right sort of hat, shabraque and weapons, then it'll do. One of the benefits of my poor painting skills is that detail is pretty much eliminated. Others on the Forum will be regurgitating their breakfast egg and soldiers in rage at this, as they paint better in 10mm than I do in 28mm.   
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SV52

Paint them the appropriate colour, then if looks like a duck, etc. it is a duck.  Unlikely anyone is going to pick up your figures and examine them with a lens.

And a guid new year.
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Chad

I would suggest that you register on Pinterest. You will find masses of illustrations of uniforms by nation. It often comes down to headgear and
if they wore boots or full trousers. It has been a while since I have been into Napoleonics and never in 10mm, but from memory I think
Austrians in kasket could be painted as early Wurttemburg for example. In 10mm it matters less than say in 15 or 28mm.

Zippee

07 January 2018, 12:21:48 PM #8 Last Edit: 07 January 2018, 12:28:51 PM by Zippee
Quote from: Sandyfalkirk on 06 January 2018, 09:52:24 PM
Hi folks,

*
So for example, could one use the Austrian Uhlans for Polish Lancers?

What about 1809 French Mounted Carabiners for Grenadiers a cheval?

How would I do Wurttemberg or Baden 1809? Can any Bavarians or Austrians be used for them?

Chasseurs a Cheval of the Guard?


As others have said a lot depends on your personal 'looks like a duck' factor

Austrian Uhlans for Polish - sort of
Austrian Uhlans 1809 - 1st Merveldt Regiment 03 by Zippee Jerred, on Flickr

Is what they look like, so overall they are uhlan alike but the shabraque is wrong (to be fair it should be more pointed for Austrians too) and lack proper epaulettes (Also no grenadier bearskin czapkas), I haven't seen them in the flesh but I suspect the 1815 Brunswick Uhlan might give a better Polish Uhlan on campaign look and make them distinct to their Austrian opponents (although I don't think any of the Austrian Uhlans were with VII Korps)

Carabinier for Grenadier is pretty close
French Carabiniers 1809 - 2nd Regiment 04 by Zippee Jerred, on Flickr

So much easier to convert by painting - the shabraque isn't really fancy enough but much of it is covered by carbines and such

Bavarians and Wurttemberg/Baden is much more complex.
For line infantry, well they are in raupenhelms but the Bavarian is much taller than Wiurttemberg though almost identical to Baden (it's the crest and boss decoration which differ and I think we can all hand wave that at 10mm). These are some of my favourite armies so my tolerance is probably less than others but I couldn't use a Bavarian as a Wurttemberg. The plumes are all wrong and no grenadier transverse crests, etc. That's without contemplating backpacks and such which I'll assume are in handwave territory.

Wurrttemberg leichtes and jager are very, very difficult, nothing in the range is acceptable even with copious handwaving because of the strange side plumed, wrapped fabric shako, short tailed, turnbacked jacket, and packs - you might if your toelerance is very low do something with Austrian EKL but it's a stretch way too far for me  :o

Baden jager are much easier, Bavarian plumed elites will suffice

For cavalry, well Baden hussars are essentially French (close enough, sort of), the light dragoons are tricky as the best thing to use would be Wurttemberg CL, though that's a stretch (but for a single regiment an acceptable one)
Wurttemberg cavalry is an issue both CL and Jager zu Pferd are pretty unique and thus Baden dragoons are an issue. Neither Austrian dragoons (helmet crest and shabraque very wrong) or French dragoons (helmet iffy, shabraque very, very wrong) are a terribly acceptable alternative and don't even think of using Bavarians  8)

Artillery, is easier as the Bavarian stuff will do for Baden and at a pinch for Wurttemberg. Oddly it should be a problem because of the Bavarian wurst cavalry battery limbers but Pendraken Bavaraian limbers are ordinary caisson limbers so the conversion is easier. Guess we still need to wait on the Austrian and Bavarian wurst limbers for cavalry batteries   :-/

As I say a lot depends on your tolerance but given that most people won't use French as British even though they're both in a daft shako so I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for different helmets as well  :D

Terry37

I am happy to help, but before doing a lot of effort, are you specifically looking at doing Wurttermburg and Baden, or were those just examples/ Once i know what you're after I believe I can share my thoughts better. I've studied and still do Napoleonic uniforms since the 60's. Not the expert, but have a good knowledge and significant reference library.

In the meantime, this site offers many of the lovely Knotel plates, which may be helpful too.  Click on "Inhalt" and it will take you to the list, then look for the Knotel Uniformkunde. It is all in German, but you should have no trouble making out who the plate references.

http://www.grosser-generalstab.de/

I'll check back later to see your reply so we can proceed.

Terry
"My heart has joined the thousand for a friend stopped running today." Mr. Richard Adams

Sandyfalkirk

Thanks for the replies and some very detailed responses which are already a great help and sadly daunting.

I've been a fan of Napoleonic's for a long time, from being a kid and having the awful 1/72 plastics then onto 28mm but we are not part of a club and a lot of it all falls on me in our group to organise anything.

Despite having read a lot about the Napoleonic Wars and even having a few books with plenty of uniforms in them I never find them as helpful as you'd hope they could be (for example Napoleonic sourcebook, Armies of Napoleonic Wars and so on).

I've found over the years that we have tended to prefer 28mm for skirmish games but this is basically French infantry and British Infantry... so I have a good idea about painting them!

However, with moving house, I've got the wonderful benefit of having more space and so the board is up more....and we want more variation and bigger battles. 6mm heroic and ros were dug out but perhaps with our age....they seem so small...too small. So to Pendraken. We had some ww2 10mm and loved them so it seemed a good idea to go for the 1809 range.

The 1809 period is perfect. We have two players who love the Austrians and plenty of folks keen on being the French. So over the past year I've greatly expanded the amount stuff we have so that (using 1:20 scale forces) we can field several brigades and they look great with 36 and 48 man battalions in 10mm.

So with lots of French and Austrians done, the Bavarians are started and this of course led to some requests about specific battles where German Allies were involved, esp. Baden and Wurttemberg troops.

My own skills are ok, its my patience which is the issue. Rank and file get the basics. Generals and Guard/Elite Units get a bit more time on them. Green stuff I'd consider for a small unit...at most. I'd never have the patience to do entire 36 man battalions with new plumes and helmets so I guess I am looking hopefully that some could "pass" glance. I'd never considered other periods such as 1870 etc...

Perhaps stupidly, I do get annoyed about things like the totally wrong helmet and plume...but less worked up about packs and to a degree the horse furniture. But I don't mind cutting things off if need be. Also happy to make shakos "campaign style" instead of full dress.

I'm not keen on using other miniature ranges....as I said, I picked up OG....they might be well proportioned but I found them unsatisfying to paint and the strips annoying. Mag M was too big and Lancer ok.  Pendraken are just way nicer to paint.

Apologies for very long post, I really appreciate your time and responses. 



Zippee

The Pendraken stuff is really splendid - not without error mind, witness the Austrian kuirassier in front and backplate  :D But they do paint up lovely.

Baden infantry you can field from Bavarians, so Harrant's brigade isn't really a problem but they had little impact, however for IV Corps you really need Nagel's Hessian brigade and the Baden/Hessian cavalry brigade. And that's a problem.

Wurttemberg, despite being my all time favourite army, actually mostly only engaged in minor clashes as X Corps protected the Danube behind the army, so really the line battalions are pretty optional, and you could paint Bavarian fusiliers as Wurttemberg fusiliers and most people wouldn't notice. The problem is the light brigade and cavalry brigade which played highly significant if not epic roles in the campaign and really need their own figures. Eckmuhl without Hugel's brigade is unthinkable.

Also there's no Saxons, or really anything that will do for them. or anything that really look like Tirailleurs Corses or du Po and its irksome indeed as without those contingents most of the historical clashes are beyond us.

By the way, why ask about Polish Uhlans, surely it's the Polish infantry in 1809 that are the real problem? Not to mention that you also need Saxons for Raczyn (one of my favourite scenarios BTW) so you're scuppered both ways.

You can proxy if you like but really you need to add your voice to the constant nagging for completion of the 1809 range  :D it took a while but it worked for centurions and Aztecs, no reason it can't work for Wurrttemberg, Hesse, Warsaw and Saxony  ;)

I won't even mention Italy because if you allow for the complete introduction of the new uniform, then they're just white coated French. That of course means that the Italians resupplied and outfitted faster than the French in 1808 . . .so white uniforms or green the jury's still out.

Sandyfalkirk

Quote from: Zippee on 07 January 2018, 07:54:02 PM
The Pendraken stuff is really splendid - not without error mind, witness the Austrian kuirassier in front and backplate  :D But they do paint up lovely.

Baden infantry you can field from Bavarians, so Harrant's brigade isn't really a problem but they had little impact, however for IV Corps you really need Nagel's Hessian brigade and the Baden/Hessian cavalry brigade. And that's a problem.

Wurttemberg, despite being my all time favourite army, actually mostly only engaged in minor clashes as X Corps protected the Danube behind the army, so really the line battalions are pretty optional, and you could paint Bavarian fusiliers as Wurttemberg fusiliers and most people wouldn't notice. The problem is the light brigade and cavalry brigade which played highly significant if not epic roles in the campaign and really need their own figures. Eckmuhl without Hugel's brigade is unthinkable.

Also there's no Saxons, or really anything that will do for them. or anything that really look like Tirailleurs Corses or du Po and its irksome indeed as without those contingents most of the historical clashes are beyond us.

By the way, why ask about Polish Uhlans, surely it's the Polish infantry in 1809 that are the real problem? Not to mention that you also need Saxons for Raczyn (one of my favourite scenarios BTW) so you're scuppered both ways.

You can proxy if you like but really you need to add your voice to the constant nagging for completion of the 1809 range  :D it took a while but it worked for centurions and Aztecs, no reason it can't work for Wurrttemberg, Hesse, Warsaw and Saxony  ;)

I won't even mention Italy because if you allow for the complete introduction of the new uniform, then they're just white coated French. That of course means that the Italians resupplied and outfitted faster than the French in 1808 . . .so white uniforms or green the jury's still out.

Never even noticed the backplate on the Austrian Cuirassiers...damn!

No one has mentioned Chasseurs a cheval of the Guard....Elite Hussars? Shame as only one pose.

I ask about Polish lancers simply because I may want to use them for 1812....and perhaps Vistula Lancers for service in Spain although with the Brit range being in Belgic shako I guess Austrian Uhlans would do! Would the 1812 Polish not do for 1809 Poles?

The Baden/Wurttemberg questions are not just about historical scenarios but we occasionally play made up ones too.  However, I do think it is a real shame that the 1809 range does not finish off certain key units and the Wurttemburg light stuff is a painful omission. I loved reading Gills three 1809 books and they feature a lot.

Saxons too...damn...

Come on Pendraken! My money wants spent!

Zippee

Quote from: Sandyfalkirk on 08 January 2018, 08:01:09 PM
Never even noticed the backplate on the Austrian Cuirassiers...damn!

No one has mentioned Chasseurs a cheval of the Guard....Elite Hussars? Shame as only one pose.

I ask about Polish lancers simply because I may want to use them for 1812....and perhaps Vistula Lancers for service in Spain although with the Brit range being in Belgic shako I guess Austrian Uhlans would do! Would the 1812 Polish not do for 1809 Poles?

The Baden/Wurttemberg questions are not just about historical scenarios but we occasionally play made up ones too.  However, I do think it is a real shame that the 1809 range does not finish off certain key units and the Wurttemburg light stuff is a painful omission. I loved reading Gills three 1809 books and they feature a lot.

Saxons too...damn...

Come on Pendraken! My money wants spent!

Shouldn't CaCdlG have full shabraques not sheepskins? That'd be an issue, otherwise the elite hussars are the closest. Annoys me there's only one pose too  :D

You'd think there would be Polish Uhlans in the 1812 range wouldn't you, or French Guard even but nope. I haven't seen any of the 1812 range but I understand it's distinctly older and different in style, not sure it would mix well (or any better than the other manufacturers you've sidelined). In theory the Polish uniform is not terribly different from 1809, supply issues notwithstanding, bearskins were issued from 1810 and new regiments being shako equipped but headgear seems to have been quite mixed with czapskas being retained frequently. Anyway grenadiers don't appear in the 1812 range so that's sorted then!

The same problem also applies to the 1812 Wurttemberg lists which only include 'line' troops, no grenadiers again. They are in helmet but should have no plumes (they were suppressed throughout the army in 1811) no idea if they are or not. And the problem of no cavalry or lights remain.

It was the new style of casting and the promise of an 1809 range that convinced me to buy in to 10mm Napoleonics (despite having several thousands in 6mm) so I'm pretty disappointed not to have a more complete range. I get the 'not just historical' thing but I think it makes a better argument when requesting the figures to point out that they aren't just exotic, weird fringe Napoleonics (and quite a bit falls into that classification - Finns and Danes for instance) but central players to some of the iconic moments of the campaign. It's kind of like refusing to produce highlanders for the 1815 range but hey they get Brusnwickers, Nassaurs and Dutch Belgians to boot, not that I'm bitter you understand  ;D

Leon

Quote from: Zippee on 08 January 2018, 09:20:21 PM
It was the new style of casting and the promise of an 1809 range that convinced me to buy in to 10mm Napoleonics (despite having several thousands in 6mm) so I'm pretty disappointed not to have a more complete range. I get the 'not just historical' thing but I think it makes a better argument when requesting the figures to point out that they aren't just exotic, weird fringe Napoleonics (and quite a bit falls into that classification - Finns and Danes for instance) but central players to some of the iconic moments of the campaign. It's kind of like refusing to produce highlanders for the 1815 range but hey they get Brusnwickers, Nassaurs and Dutch Belgians to boot, not that I'm bitter you understand  ;D

I think I've explained the Naps ranges somewhere already, but the current ranges/sculpting plans are due to a large customer buying 20,000-30,000 figures at a time.  We're currently working on his British order covering all the Brits, Brunswickers, Hanoverians, D-B's and KGL, so the sculpting plans have followed his requirements.  If anyone wants to buy 20,000 Saxons or Wurttemburgers then I'm sure we can bump them up the queue!
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