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Author Topic: Infantry in cap  (Read 466 times)
mrpoum
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Posts: 3


« on: 06 December 2017, 10:48:35 AM »


When looking at a napoleonic game table, it often adds a lot -visually- when some infantry with cap is fielded. Because the color of the cap stands out most nicely among the largely black headgear of the time...

Luckily, in naps this can be a very quick win it mostly applies to 3 troop types:

- Prussians landwehr (already covered, many thanks!)
- 1815 Hanoverian - missed in the 1815 range  Cry
- Russians in forage cap (Pokalem)

1 pose each of "1815 hanoverian with cap" and "russian with forage cap" would be very handy, just to mix it with the other infantry.

...IMHO these are two sculpts that would make a big difference in the visual appeal of our napoleonic tables..  Wink

Here some images of 1815 Hanoverians with cap:
http://centjours.mont-saint-jean.com/uniformes_uniteBR.php?uniformes=35&nation=5

http://centjours.mont-saint-jean.com/uniformes_uniteBR.php?uniformes=90&nation=5

http://centjours.mont-saint-jean.com/uniformes_uniteBR.php?uniformes=57&nation=5

And russians with cap:
https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?products_id=2728


Many thanks in advance  Smiley


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mad lemmey
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« Reply #1 on: 06 December 2017, 11:39:06 AM »

Hannover also issued a mix of Belgic and stovepipe shako
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Ace of Spades
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« Reply #2 on: 06 December 2017, 11:50:36 AM »

Personally I believe the shako (either Belgic or Stovepipe) would be the standard for Hannoverian troops and should therefore be portrayed in figures as being the most authentic. Same goes, in my opinion, for the Russian infantry wearing shakos.

Cheers,
Rob
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Zippee
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« Reply #3 on: 06 December 2017, 12:49:00 PM »

Personally I feel that randomised equipment and uniform detracts massively from the visual impact on the tabletop.

I'd far rather we got the necessary additional figures for all the missing core troops like Saxons, Hessians and Wurttembergers than waste effort on esoteric fatigue cap options only really suitable for camp vignettes.
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mrpoum
Cadet

Posts: 3


« Reply #4 on: 10 December 2017, 02:21:18 AM »

Personally I believe the shako (either Belgic or Stovepipe) would be the standard for Hannoverian troops and should therefore be portrayed in figures as being the most authentic. Same goes, in my opinion, for the Russian infantry wearing shakos.
Cheers,
Rob

Thanks for your note. Russians and Hanoverian were obviously wearing shakos as standard headgear. But Belgic, Stovepipe and Russian shakos are already available in the Pendraken range.
This part of the forum is dedicated to suggestions for new references. My ask is simply to produce one or two references of infantry with caps to be able to bring some variety in the ranks, or represent the units that actually fielded caps. I put forward the Russians and Hanoverian because these are two armies where these caps are commonly pictured (even though the cap was actually in use in most of the armies of that period)
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mrpoum
Cadet

Posts: 3


« Reply #5 on: 10 December 2017, 02:26:37 AM »

(...) than waste effort on esoteric fatigue cap options only really suitable for camp vignettes.


Apologies for having suggested to" waste effort" on something that is not in your priority list  Smiley

FYI The fatigue cap is not an esoteric fantasy, it was largely in use in the napoleonic period. Some units wore it as standard (Russian militias, many landwehr regiments). In many other units, the cap was the common alternative to wearing the shako in campaign.
Representing a few soldiers in the regiment having lost their shako and wearing the cap is not more esoteric than fielding units with 100% perfectly identical parade uniforms, which is what some gamers believe was the norm.

FYI2 there were more Russian militia in cap in 1812 than there were British troops at Waterloo, all headgears combined. We however have multiple references for 1815 British in shako, and none for infantry in cap.

FYI 3 you may not know this, but actually most other manufacturers produce infantry in cap (in 10mm, 15mm and 28mm). Old Glory 15s provides them in packs of 50, which seems a lot to serve "only as camp vignettes" IMHO. Similarly, in 28mm, Victrix proposes the cap headgear for Hanoverians in packs of 36.
...I'm pretty sure these folks do not produce these packs purely based on esoteric thinking. And they probably do not feel like "wasting effort" when they sell it.

Back to Pendraken, there are currently more than 100 references in shako or helmet in the Pendraken napoleonic range. And we can use proxies for much of the missing troops. You can always paint white a french shako infantry and call it saxon... few gamers will notice in 10mm.

But try doing this for infantry with cap: there is not one reference in the current range that we can re-use.
Which is why I think that they would be a nice add to the current range.

Kind regards
« Last Edit: 10 December 2017, 02:56:03 AM by mrpoum » Logged
paulr
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« Reply #6 on: 10 December 2017, 03:15:52 AM »

Welcome to the forum mrpoum Wave

From my time on the forum it appears that some members having been waiting a considerable period of time for particular figures (FierceKitty - Aztecs) and so may be inclined to react strongly
As you suggest we all have different priorities, I don't envy Leon & co the challenge of balancing these competing demands
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Ithoriel
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« Reply #7 on: 10 December 2017, 11:05:41 AM »

Hi mrpoum! Welcome to the forum.

You are quite right that this is exactly what this bit of the forum is for and I support your right to ask for any figures that are of interest to you.

That said, I hope you will understand my frustration, as one who's primary interest at the moment is Early Bronze Age Mesopotamia, if Pendraken, a company who currently do no figures at all covering roughly the first 50% of human military history, choose to give you a choice of hat for troops already covered rather than doing things for which there is no coverage at all in their ranges.

If cap wearing troops are important to you, and they clearly are, then by all means fight your corner to have them made.

As Paul alluded to, FierceKitty put Cato the Censor to shame in his shoehorning of requests for an Aztec range into every conceivable topic here and fsn has been a passionate (and successful) advocate of all things Centurion*.

More power to your elbow!


*The tank not Cede Alteram and his fellows!
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mollinary
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« Reply #8 on: 10 December 2017, 11:51:34 AM »

Hi Mr Poum,

Have you looked at any of the non-Napoleonic  ranges?  In the Schleswig Holstein nineteenth Century range there is SHD 2 which has Danes in 1842 uniform (a tail coat, I think) in cap. The cap is of the sort I have seen on larger figures of Napoleonic Hanoverians.
In the Crimean War range there is a pack of Russian infantry in greatcoat and cap ( a round peakless forage cap) which might also pass muster. The command are in pickelhaube, but I am sure Leon could arrange to do you some without command. 
Best,

Mollinary
« Last Edit: 10 December 2017, 12:02:38 PM by mollinary » Logged
petercooman
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« Reply #9 on: 10 December 2017, 12:17:50 PM »

Although not completely correct, they do look good mixed with other troops. They add some variety to the otherwise monotone battle line.

Warlord games hanoverians as an example:







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fred.
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« Reply #10 on: 10 December 2017, 04:03:05 PM »

Welcome - this is not my period at all, but it seems a very reasonable request. It is essentially asking for a head swap on existing figures, which is much simpler and quicker from a sculpting perspective, than having to create new figures.

We have seen this on other ranges - that Pendraken will often produce a number of variants (see Shermans and T34s) as the variants are much quicker once the base model is in existence.
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Zippee
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« Reply #11 on: 11 December 2017, 04:56:35 PM »

Apologies for having suggested to" waste effort" on something that is not in your priority list  Smiley

You don't seem to have been here for the frustration of seeing the new 1809 range left short because of the desire to reflect a bicentenary of the least important campaign of the era  Cheesy

FYI The fatigue cap is not an esoteric fantasy, it was largely in use in the napoleonic period. Some units wore it as standard (Russian militias, many landwehr regiments). In many other units, the cap was the common alternative to wearing the shako in campaign.
Representing a few soldiers in the regiment having lost their shako and wearing the cap is not more esoteric than fielding units with 100% perfectly identical parade uniforms, which is what some gamers believe was the norm.

However IMO they would not be preferred for combat which is what we generally are reflecting - and note I did not use the term 'fantasy' but I do think fatigue caps are far down the priority list.

FYI2 there were more Russian militia in cap in 1812 than there were British troops at Waterloo, all headgears combined. We however have multiple references for 1815 British in shako, and none for infantry in cap.

Well 1812 holds little interest for me but Russian militia is an important troop / uniform type not just regulars in fatigue cap

FYI 3 you may not know this, but actually most other manufacturers produce infantry in cap (in 10mm, 15mm and 28mm). Old Glory 15s provides them in packs of 50, which seems a lot to serve "only as camp vignettes" IMHO. Similarly, in 28mm, Victrix proposes the cap headgear for Hanoverians in packs of 36.
...I'm pretty sure these folks do not produce these packs purely based on esoteric thinking. And they probably do not feel like "wasting effort" when they sell it.

The fact that others do the wrong thing isn't evidence that it's good practice  Wink

And they are produced mostly to scratch the itch of those who want their 12 men taking a flag for a walk to all be dressed differently to reflect historical campaign variety in a ridiculous scaling up of numbers and ratios. Most units would have striven as hard as possible to present a uniform appearance in the field IMO. Just because it's a wargamer trend doesn't make it right or good!


Back to Pendraken, there are currently more than 100 references in shako or helmet in the Pendraken napoleonic range. And we can use proxies for much of the missing troops. You can always paint white a french shako infantry and call it saxon... few gamers will notice in 10mm.

Well no, not even if I wanted Saxons in 1810+ uniforms, which I don't. Painting French white doesn't cut it. What I do most definitely want is the 1809 range to be completed to a reasonable level before other periods are dipped into.

But try doing this for infantry with cap: there is not one reference in the current range that we can re-use.
Which is why I think that they would be a nice add to the current range.

Well if painting French white is good for 1809 Saxons then surely just clipping the top off the shako is good for caps. Can't have double standards old chap.
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Ace of Spades
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« Reply #12 on: 11 December 2017, 06:23:38 PM »

Thanks for your note. Russians and Hanoverian were obviously wearing shakos as standard headgear. But Belgic, Stovepipe and Russian shakos are already available in the Pendraken range.
This part of the forum is dedicated to suggestions for new references. My ask is simply to produce one or two references of infantry with caps to be able to bring some variety in the ranks, or represent the units that actually fielded caps. I put forward the Russians and Hanoverian because these are two armies where these caps are commonly pictured (even though the cap was actually in use in most of the armies of that period)


Hi mrpoum,

You are correct indeed on suggesting new references , I was merely stating why I believe it would not be a very historical option and therefore the effort required to produce such sets could perhaps better be put to other use.
The Prussian Landwehr is already in caps and in the Crimean range there are both Russians in tunic and greatcoat wearing caps because in those cases the cap is the standard, historic, headgear.
Perhaps buying a set of Prussian Landwehr and swapping the heads would give you the figures you're looking for? It would at least give you the option of making more different figures then one complete set would give you and therefore a more authentic looking unit. Just an idea!

Cheers,
Rob
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