British Uniform Italy WW2

[Heedless Horseman]

Please could anyone suggest a pictorial online source for Brit or Commonwealth uniforms in the Italian campaign. I already know the 'look' that I want...HEAT...rolled up shirtsleeves, battledress trousers and tin hats without netting. I think that this might be non-historical as most pics that I have seen show Battledress similar to NW Europe...or weird smocks and jerkins...whatever was comfy/practical! lol. At this time, I am not looking for the cold/wet look that was so uncomfortably prevalent in 'sunny Italy' as I want the scenario to appear different to Normandy/late war.

I am thinking of Battledress trousers in shades of British Uniform Khaki with Khaki Drill shirt...sleeves rolled , pale sand helmet and webbing/packs of whatever looks ok...paint being a mix of Vallejo, Revell, Howard Hues and Cote D' Arms.

I am also  curious about some things. Was it possible/comfortable to roll up the sleeves of Battledress? Was there a light weight and pale colour Battledress with LONG trousers for desert, or just the standard kit?

Most figures have 8th Army in shorts and shirt, although I think that this was against regs due to the risk of small scrapes etc. going bad. I have also seen shirts in both a grey/green and sandy colour...and tin hats, either pale or dark sand! Yet again,  I am thinking that I can just go with whatever looks ok...rather than correct kit! lol.

From what I have seen troops/vehicles in Sicily were more like the Western Desert...and in Tunisia often almost like NW Europe... so by early Italy, it gets confusing!

Thoughts appreciated. 

[Aksu]

Hullo,
The imperial war museum has a searchable image library e.g. http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?query=Italy+soldier&items_per_page=10

Google image search  is also quite good to get leads on actual sources, such as the IWM archive.

Cheers.
Aksu

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

A lot of Italian front was mostly a winter campaign,  and '44 was one of the coldest winters on record, even in Italy, where it was exceptionally wet. Tropical and desert kit was not worn, but shirtsleeve order was.
The Flames of War italiam Campaign book is very useful for this, and I painted an army for it a few years back.
All colours below are 'coat d'arms' unless otherwise noted.
Trousers and jackets would be 'British khaki', shirt sleeves would be 'faded khaki'. Helmets, even of desert veterans, were (Vallejo) 'brown violet', the webbing would be faded khaki, unless it was a veterans desert issue 'desert sand'. The jerkin was a winter issue and was 'chestnut brown'. You also had commonwealth troops in lemon squeezer hats (especially kiwis) and that was 'brown violet' too.
Armour was 'brown violet' and the mud on the Anzio is Humbrol 'stonegrey'!

[fsn]

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/allandavy/italian-campaign/?lp=true
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/robertmk040/italian-campaign-ww2/?lp=true

Not related, but at about 1:15, American Cavalry!

[Techno]

Good grief.. ..I know, I know, next to b*gger all about all 'historical' periods.....(and I rely on you lot for info for whatever I'm making, to get things as correct as possible.)....But I didn't realise horses were used in the second World War.

Cheers - Phil

[fsn]

Most of the German transport was horse drawn - they even had cavalry divisions. As did the Russians. Poles were famous for 'em.





I'd think of them more as mounted infantry than cavalry.

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Phil - Britsh and Americans form 42/3 onward only used Mules, but in 41 in Syria the Cheshire Yeomanry conducted a mounted charge. Soviets had cavalry divisions  probably until 1956, when Kruchev (SP) mechanised the army, French had 2-3 DLC in 1940, and colonial cavalry til 42/3, Germans used cavalry until 45, although only ever had 1-2 Divisions at a time. Germans, Russains and all minor armies used huge numbers of draft horses. Many minor armies also had combat cavalry.

IanS

[Ithoriel]

Good grief.. ..I know, I know, next to b*gger all about all 'historical' periods.....(and I rely on you lot for info for whatever I'm making, to get things as correct as possible.)....But I didn't realise horses were used in the second World War.

Cheers - Phil

The Germans and Russians had literally millions of them but I'm sure you're not alone in not knowing that.

I blame TV, film and wargamers, all of whom prefer to field the more "sexy" Tigers, panzergrenadiers and self-propelled guns rather than the more common footsloggers and horse drawn artillery and transport.

The Eastern Front was big enough to allow the deployment of whole cavalry divisions.

[Techno]

Thanks, Guys.....I've learned something today ! 

Cheers - Phil

[paulr]

The last mounted charge by the US cavalry took place against Japanese forces during the fighting in the Bataan Peninsula, Philippines, in the village of Morong on 16 January 1942, by the 26th Cavalry Regiment (Philippine Scouts).

[Heedless Horseman]

Thanks for the gen so far, esp M Lemmy...a colour used for US Olive Drab for Tin Hats was a surprise, though at least it would look a bit more 'brownish' than what I would use for NWE Brits. Still might go for a mix with desert, tho...looking for an effect rather than 100% accuracy.      

On horses...most German transport was horsedrawn...The Falaise Gap must have been horrifying after the straffing...as would be most aftermaths, but,  I have heard that the most vivid memory of passing through Normandy was the stink of rotting horses along the roads.

Horses could still be very useful for other purposes...esp. scouting and improvised communication Even 'Band Of Brothers' and 'Fury' include odd guys riding around !    . A commandeered horse could possibly have been an asset in close country where vehicles might not be ideal or in short supply. Horses were definitely valuable for patrolling on the Eastern Front. Though not 'stealth' creatures, they make sneaking around large areas of  poor country looking for infiltration or partisan activity more effective than motors. Recce should not involve contact, so their vulnerability would be less important...and in WW2, fodder and water supplies would have been more easily found than petrol. Use on a large scale incurred great problems of supply though. There is thought that problems with the logistics of horse transport MAY have been as great a cause for Napoleon's failure in 1812 as 'The Russian Winter'...and also contributory to German failure on the Eastern Front...rail could only bring up supplies...they still had to be distributed somehow.

[Ithoriel]

In the course of the charge of the Savoia Cavalleria at Izbushensky (August 24, 1942) some 700 Italian horsemen routed around 2500 dug-in Russian infantry.

The Italians lost eighty-odd men dead and wounded and over a hundred horses but killed 150 Russians, wounded 300 and captured 600 prisoners, four guns and ten mortars.

Apparently one of the lost horses was down to the Italian trumpeter who, struggling to control horse/ trumpet/ pistol simultaneously, accidentally shot his own horse in the head!

[Techno]

...... accidentally shot his own horse in the head!

CLANG !!!

On a not completely unrelated topc...

Von pointed out a clip that someone had linked to, on one of her horsey sites, of 'Joey'.....The puppet Warhorse, meeting real horses. (There are loads of clips on YouTube of similar meetings.)

It doesn't half confuse the living horses.....And the puppeteers make it move in an incredibly convincing way.

Try this one.... www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1q9TXcng7o

Makes me smile, anyway.

Cheers - Phil

[Ithoriel]

Ooh! I like that.

I'm always rather taken with the willingness of people to react to puppets as though they were the real deal.

[Techno]

The real, living horses certainly did.....Trying to do the 'nose blow' routine.

I do that to Von's gee gees from time to time....(And any horse that I meet for the first time....I've developed a fairly good 'sussing' of a horse's body language, living around Von's big pets, after all these decades....And I 'know' whether the gee-gee is going to react badly and try and bite my nose off.) 

In truth, I've only met a single horse...out of dozens and dozens and dozens...Where I've thought.."Given the chance, you'll try and stove the top of my skull in, by rearing up and crashing down"

Most evil horse I've ever met will be long dead by now.....Good riddance.

Cheers - Phil