Stands and Counters - Happy Medium?

[Sojka]

Hello everyone.

So, I am on a quest for a set of battalion level WW2 rules which handle mixed battalions/task forces/kampfgruppe well. The goal is to be able to stay in the realm of a tactical game, but to be able to play combined arms operations at a level above the currently popular "company plus" rules sets. Zooming out to the battalion/regimental/multi-company level does involve some abstraction, however, due to ground scale and playability. Chief among these abstractions is the need to use platoon-scale maneuver elements. However, how to depict and base those platoons is the current object of my concern. For an example, let's look at a US task force, a combined arms formation that combat commands could be divided into (The same could even be said for the combat command itself). Lets say that our task force contains a command stand, two armored infantry companies, a medium tank company, and perhaps a battery of 80mm mortars for close support. How do we base these?

The Battlefront WW2 rules from Fire and Fury Games base infantry (and handle firing) of infantry by squads, and they typically use 2 tanks to depict a platoon, plus a command tank, as follows:

Task Force Command Stand x 1

Armored Infantry Command Stand x2
Armored Infantry Platoon Stand x18 (9 per company)
Machine Gun Squad x6 (3 per platoon)
57mm Antitank Stand x2 (1 per company, though often not present.)
60mm Mortar Stand x2 (1 per company, realistically these would be combined into 1 battery)
Assorted Transports (18 in total if we're counting them. For my sanity, I will not.)

Medium Tank Platoon Command Tank x1
Medium Tanks x6 (2 per platoon - imagine if we used 5!)

M4 Mortar Carrier Stand

This gives us, if we do NOT include the Armored Infantry's transports or 57mm AT guns, 37 individual stands. Orders are given at the company and platoon level, with the number of firing dice used depending on the total number of stands. Cool; it's a nice way to keep track of losses and total components of a given unit without counters. However, 37 different stands, on a 4" hex board where each hex is 100 meters, is really crowding. If I base at the platoon level, I would get:

Task Force Command Stand x1

Armored InArmored Infantry Command Stand x2
Armored Infantry Platoon Stands x6 (3 per company)
Machine Gun Squad x0 (For now, lets assume each gun stays with its parent platoon)
57mm Antitank Stand x2 (1 per company, though often not present, let's stay consistent and not count this)
60mm Mortar Stand x1 (1 per company, realistically these would be combined into 1 battery. Let's do that here)
Assorted Transports (If I depicted these, each platoon or battery would have a stand of halftracks dedicated to it. For now, I am not counting them for consistency.)

Medium tank Command Stand x1 (With 2 tanks)
Medium Tank Platoon Stands x3

M4 Mortar Carrier Stand x1

So this is a total of 15 bases; much better than 37. However, keeping track of losses (and hence reductions in firing ability, etc) will require the use of counters, and thus be a bit more record-intensive.

In short... if someone were frustrated enough to begin homebrewing rules, which one would you use?

[fred.]

Have you tried Blitzkrieg Commander? New version due soon from Pendraken.

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Have a look on freewaragmesrules.co.uk, and also specifically at BGMR WWII rules. You can also use BKCIII, but treat each tank as an individual tank, and a base of infantry as a section, or specific support weapon.

IanS

[howayman]

Rapid Fire gives a good game.
Supposed to be a 3rd version some time soon.

[Subedai]

Rapid Fire gives a good game.
Supposed to be a 3rd version some time soon.

Is there? I don't even remember hearing about a 2nd version!

MickS

[toxicpixie]

Spearhead does what you're after as well, with a focus on combined &supporting arms and command decisions at regimental level over lower level squad/platoon commander decisions.

Still uses platoons as the lowest element (one vehicle model or infantry on a 30mm base) but it encourages actual formations & tactics.

Played "vanilla" it's a bit "best possible nazis versus worst possible Allies" (esp the East Front scenario book) but the fan built scenario system and a bit of historical knowledge sorts that with ease

[paulr]

Spearhead seconded

Signed a fan builder

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Only problem with Spearhead is its heavy bias toward Americans. If you are going down the Rapid Fire route look at FoW, plays better at smaller scales, and Battlegroup.

IanS (and yes I've tried all of em)

[toxicpixie]

Not had anyone comment on a bias towards Americans in SH before!

Germans yes, Americans no. Unless you mean it's an American set of rules, but most interest these days seems to be from New Zealand

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

The rules are defo pro yank, procedures  only they are allowed originated with the British Army, also the scenario books are both inaccurate and pro German.

[toxicpixie]

I mentioned the scenario books first, the East Front is definitely written from the memoires of suspiciously white washed ex-Wehrmacht, now NATO German generals

The only difference in US to UK rules is the relatively duff UK artillery pre-'42 changes to implement procedure and gear properly, and that was addressed shortly after release as they're treated as US (and slightly better) by the errata these last fifteen-twenty years    

Could do with a tidied up and errata/suggestions implemented in the actual rulebook, to be honest, but sadly no one wants to do that.

There's a lot of "non-official" extras too, I've always fancied taking the US as German command against the Panzer Brigades in late '44 treated as Russians for command, for instance!

[skywalker]

We enjoy using Rapid Fire at our club, especially when you play games from the various scenarios books.

[toxicpixie]

I don't mind a bash at Rapid Fire! - we played last week, actually

As a game it's decent enough but I don't like it's "armed mob" approach to command and the mechanisms are far too small unit tactical for the scale it's pitched at. 20mm and single figure basing (one figure is 15 men? Approx half a platoon?) for a multi-battalion sized game is weird too.

But it plays well enough, it's easy to pick up and you get to roll dice and shove figures around and take them off, and unless you go crazy you can get a game finished in a couple of hours even at a distracted club night

[Steve J]

Blitzkreig Commander II is a great set of rules and Battlegroup is good too, although I have only played one game. With the latter you can play from a section all the way through to Company level and above.

[Sojka]

BKC is the next set I wish to get. I have Battlefront WW2, Battlegroup Panzer Grenadier, Command Decision at this level. I think my hobby is as much collecting wargame rules as playing wargames.