How rules handle high explosive v armour

Started by Norm, 13 October 2017, 04:57:43 PM

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Ithoriel

Interesting piece.

I'm sure I've read that the chance of a tank burning on a penetrating hit was around 80% until the use of wet stowage when it dropped to around 15% so your rules may underestimate the chance. That aside, it looks pretty good to me.

The SU152's ability to rip the turret off a Tiger was quite impressive!
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Orcs

13 October 2017, 09:48:13 PM #2 Last Edit: 13 October 2017, 10:14:45 PM by Orcs
Standard HE shells have a casing that general is not heavy or strong enough to damage armour.  There were periods and guns where this was not the case. The 25pdr in the western desert initially used a standard HE shell without the fuse being set as an anti tank round  and was effective -probably more down to the very light armour of the tanks involved at the time.

So HE shells have to use the power of the blast to damage tanks, this is generally damage to running gear etc.  During Barbarossa this was about all the Germans could do to stop T34's or KV1s .

The blast effect could be a killer if the blast was strong enough to case spalling inside the tank (have to be a big shell), or if the turret was open the blast could kill the crew.  

In the case of large shells the blast could rip turrets off or physically turn the tank over.

I have a couple of first hand experiences to illustrate this:-

One of my brothers used to work with a tank veteran who drove a Churchill AVRE in Normandy.  They were the lead vehicle in a convoy through a "cleared" area of bocage. they turned a corner and nearly ran into the rear of a Tiger 1. Its crew dropped into the vehicle and started to traverse the turret.  The Churchill could not reverse as the convoy was now right behind them.  they did not know weather to abandon the tank and risk being machine gunned or stay in it ,in desperation they fired the spigot mortar. It burst on or near the tiger and did not appear to have done anything at all , but the turret stopped turning. After about fifteen minutes they cautiously approached the Tiger. All the crew were dead from blast but the Tiger was untouched. They suspected they had not secured the hatches. They removed the bodies and drove it out of the way.

My Dads friend served on a 3.7 AA gun in the western desert. On several occasions they had to engage the enemy tanks as they were about to be over run. They only had AA shells so aimed to the side of the tanks. the ensuing blast was often enough to roll the tank over.

From  this is I would only allow He from guns of 100mm ish to do any more than damage tracks etc. Above 100mm they have a reasonable change to cause sufficient damage to remove the vehicle from the game.

The HE in mortars is very small ( with the exception of 100mm plus, which are really artillery) They are designed as anti-personnel weapons and the HE in the shell is there to produce shrapnel not blast.  

Shrapnel is of absolutely no use against any closed armoured vehicle where the armour is sufficient to stop normal bullets. The exception being unless the crew have open turrets, or get the million to one chance of dropping it into an open hatch. It will however force the crew to close down, severely limiting there vision, and allowing more potent weapons like RPGs or bazookas to get close enough to destroy them. Thus also reducing the morale of the crew.



 
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Steve J

I've read of HE being used against tanks purely in a suppression role, as the crew inside would not know if the blast was from a tank, a mortar, artillery or aircraft.

The following article is of interest as it shows the effect of a 152mm HE shell against German tanks. Pretty impressive really:

http://tankarchives.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/suisu-152-vs-german-big-cats.html

Norm

Thanks all,

Orc's, those sort of stories just bring home both the fascinating and the terrible aspects to armoured warfare.

Steve, I have never seen penetration holes like that before - amazing.

I read an account (Thomas Anderson) of Tigers crews nerves being frazzled when under fire, even though in reality they were proof against most of what was coming in.


Aksu

14 October 2017, 08:10:59 AM #5 Last Edit: 14 October 2017, 08:12:37 AM by Aksu
In a book about the Burmese front, even light mortars are decribed as being effective against light tanks:

(Japanes...) expert with mortars, of which he used large numbers, a fact which was duly noted by Major M. F. S. Rudkin, who commanded C Squadron 2 RTR in Burma.

‘The weapon which did most damage to the tanks was their mortar, which was approximately 50 mm. They used this with extreme accuracy, and they penetrated the top of the tank where the armour was thinnest. One tank of B Squadron stopped for a few moments in an open bit of ground, and within one minute received six direct hits.

‘The Japanese 75-mm gun, used over open sights, was fairly effective and stopped a tank, but though this did not penetrate the front, it often penetrated the side or rear and would only damage the front. About a quarter of the tanks hit by 75-mm guns were knocked out.’

In both cases the tanks referred to are Stuarts, which were lightly armoured. The heavier Lee/Grants and Shermans, used later in the campaign, could stand up to both mortars and 75-mm guns, although use by the Japanese of captured British 25-pounders in the anti-tank role did produce results.



Excerpt From: "Tank Tracks to Rangoon: The Story of British Armour in Burma" by Bryan Perrett. Scribd.
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Cheers,
Aksu

FierceKitty

What about jamming a turret or wrecking a radio?
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Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

You have a point there Kitty. Matilda II's could be put out of action with small arms, the lead welded the turret. Don't over do the artillery, the British parked several time expired Churchills on a range and shelled them for several hours, with little effect, bar cracked periscopes and stripped antenna. Both of those are easily replaceable. I've also seen sources saying that the 5.5" howitzer had an AP shot which was never issued, in the unlikely event of these guns needing to fire at tanks the crew would leave the fuze out, or fuze the shell but leave the protective cap on. A solid hit would be rather effective.

IanS
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Wulf

This has reminded me of a gaming story - my adversary (Tom Davidson, former owver of games shop Dragon & George in Glasgow, where this game was played...) had a couple of Tiger I units (the game was Spearhead), and all I had to stop them was a couple of 3" mortars.  3" mortars are entirely ineffective agains Tigers unless they can roll 11+ on 2d6, TWICE...

... yeah...  :o

I figured they either killed of the commanders or dropped on them while they were refuelling.  :D

He hated Tigers anyway (we used them as we were short of minis that day), and has never forgiven my dice.  8)

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

One problem was disturbing the sights. A Tiger attack on 112 in July 44 a company of tigers was hit by heavy artillery fire. They appeared undamaged, but during the fighting one of them almost fired on another, as the sights were well out of alignment. Unexpected causes and effects.
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Dr Dave

Never think anything is useless:

The first king tiger that appeared at the Arnhem perimeter was ko'd by a 3" mortar - the round landed on the rear deck and set for to all the stowed kit. The crew bailed.

A veteran I know recalls 2 German tanks that appeared in front of their platoon. PIAT couldn't be found and in the ensuing maelstrom of small arms fire both (heads up) commanders were killed - the tanks then reversed away.

Optics can be smashed (as already stated) making aiming and firing the tank armament a little problematic. A CR2 was famously disabled this way in GW2. The "besieged" crew had to wait for the rest of the troop to arrive while enduring the sound of RPGs detonating (uselessly) against their armour.

Ace of Spades

Or how about the King Tiger that got stuck in Stavelot during the Ardennes Offensive; being hit point blank by an American rifle grenade that didn't do any damage whatsoever; the inexperienced driver backed up, into a building and the tank got stuck there. They just left it there and went on their way. These things do happen in real life...

Cheers,
Rob
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Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Or same area, the 2 Chaffees vs the 2 King Tigers. (Or more likely Panthers, typical Yankee exaggeration). The Chaffes had just been issued to a scratch btn and were out looking for Germans. The Germans obliged by appearing in their Tigers  at about 30m range. Both Chaffes had HE loaded, and the crews fired it off. One crew hit the turret side just where the ready use ammunition rack was - cooked the rounds off, exit turret. Second tank hit the end of the Tiger barrel, and removed the muzzle break bending the barrel in the process....well it MIGHT have happened !

IanS
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Ace of Spades

Indeed; like the end of KG Peiper, same theatre; 75mm Sherman fires point blank at a Panthers front armour useless and too low... but; round bounces of the road and tears open the belly of the beast. That's one way to do it!

Cheers,
Rob
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Duke Speedy of Leighton

Knew a para vet from Arnhem, said they were bouncing piats off the cobbles to hit under tanks!

We had a Scots Guards Sergeant who drank in the same pub, always saluted the Para when he came in.
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