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Author Topic: Current Climate of Wargaming?  (Read 38667 times)
Battleback
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« Reply #150 on: 30 November 2020, 12:13:58 AM »

This brings t a few things to think about:-

1. If vehicles are more profitable than figures (easier to pack less faffing about etc), will the manufacturers even be able to keep going with a loss of this part of their sales?

2. Will this mean large price increases for figures ?

3. Will they bother to produce vehicles at all?

4. Will they even say WW2 / modern  is not really commercially viable , so we will stop producing ranges for that period and stick to the periods where the entire range will be
    bought from us?

You could then be left with any vehicle you wanted in 3d but no decent figures to field with them.
Those are all great questions and I can only guess what the future will bring. But I'm of the opinion that companies like Pendraken will start selling 3D files along with their physical figures, once there's a system in place to keep people from just giving the files away. Thats where a Steam like platform will be needed to sell and distribute 3D files.

Companies then can sell their files and bundle their games with all you need to play with just one purchase; miniatures and terrain etc along with a copy of the rules. So really no differnt from what a lot of companies are doing now but just digitally.

I was one of the people that held PC gaming close to my heart back in the day and thought there's no way I'm going to buy a digital copy of a game. I wanted the manual and the box to keep on my shelf... Well now I own hundreds of games on Steam and no one buys a hard copy of a PC game anymore. Times change, like it or not!

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Sandinista
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« Reply #151 on: 30 November 2020, 12:29:39 AM »

When 3D printing gives a finished product with no ridges and no need for cleaning off supports, I may switch. I have some fantastically detailed resin printed 3D figures for Battletech yet I am disappointed, they remain unpainted as there is far too much clean up required.

Ian

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Battleback
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« Reply #152 on: 30 November 2020, 01:02:08 AM »

When 3D printing gives a finished product with no ridges and no need for cleaning off supports, I may switch. I have some fantastically detailed resin printed 3D figures for Battletech yet I am disappointed, they remain unpainted as there is far too much clean up required.

Ian

sent from my fingers using typing...
Supports should be removed after cleaning but before curing, that's the best time to remove them becouse the supports are soft. But I suppose you can't keep the price affordable and remove the supports. I don't know if selling printed figures will have much of a future, personally.

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FierceKitty
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« Reply #153 on: 30 November 2020, 01:19:10 AM »

I am reminded of Clarke's Law: If a distinguished but elderly scientist says something is possible, he is probably right. If he says something is impossible, he is almost certainly wrong.

(The great Clarke lived a bit before the age in which all decent people felt uncomfortable or indignant about the implications of masculine pronouns in such cases.)
« Last Edit: 30 November 2020, 01:21:18 AM by FierceKitty » Logged

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Leon
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« Reply #154 on: 30 November 2020, 01:20:43 AM »

The proportion was OK but they exhibited a peculiar ridge-like series of lines on all surfaces.  These were particularly pronounced on curved or angled surfaces such that the amount of filler and work to remedy them was hardly worth the effort. 

I would like to know why there is this variety in quality?  Is it something to do with developing technology?  I am sure the 3D printing is a technology of the future but it seems a bit immature at the moment.

That's purely the production method, the extrusion machines (like a printer head) push out plastic and build the model line by line vertically, giving those striation lines you've got there.  The resin/LCD screen printers don't have those issues and produce a much cleaner print.  Time varies massively though, so the extrusion folks are putting out quicker models but at a lower quality.

Sometime in the future I think we'll see a 3D file service akin to Steam that will change the industry. Right now it's not that easy to find files you want for free or pay, it's a really hit or miss affair. But when the printers/Resin reach the point of mass use I'm confident a file service will follow.

That's an interesting point but as you say it would depend on their being a proper service for it, as most companies won't have the ability to sell in that manner and protect themselves against piracy.  Could be a business opportunity there for someone!  Although most of the UK companies using digital masters for vehicles seem to be using the same handful of digital sculptors, so it would be interesting to see who gets the rights to sell them!

1. If vehicles are more profitable than figures (easier to pack less faffing about etc), will the manufacturers even be able to keep going with a loss of this part of their sales?

Vehicles are one of the few higher-profit areas in 10mm at least, so I can't see 3D printing being able to compete on price for a very long time (obviously with print-to-sell, rather than print at home).  We can knock out 60 tanks per hour quite easily but the 3D printer would struggle to do more than a dozen in 2-3 hours.  Things will speed up but there's always a limit on that where the hardware can't physically cope with moving any quicker without knocking out the calibration.


The new 10mm WW2 tanks from PSC are going to be 1/160 in their new scio-cast, which is another emerging technology to think about.

Are they definitely going with 1/160th and if so, won't that clash with their 1:144th Cold War stuff?  All of the WWII tanks that remained in service through to Korea, Yom Kippur, Indo-China will end up being the wrong scale for the Cold War period, or are they going to duplicate them all in two scales?  

I don't understand some of these scaling decisions recently if I'm honest.  Victrix did the same with their WWII stuff, where it was '10mm' and folks were told they "...will fit with other 10mm ranges" when they first previewed them, but then switched to calling it '12mm/1:144th' when they released them.  But then the comparison pics I've seen of them show that they're almost identical to ours, at 1:150th?!  And I'm fairly sure that a Victrix 28mm Napoleonic figure is 28mm to eye-level, but their WWII infantry are 12mm overall height...?  So is it just a marketing decision to call them something different and try to stop gamers from buying from anyone else?  

I've not seen any comparisons of the PSC vehicles against ours, so I'm not sure where they sit.  The infantry look to be taller than ours so could be 12mm to eye level maybe.  If they're going with 1:160th for the WWII ranges then I presume that their WWII infantry will be a touch smaller than ours?
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sean66
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« Reply #155 on: 30 November 2020, 08:02:21 AM »

Leon
I think 3d printing has a way to go before it competes with the Mainstream manufacture of metal vehicles and figures.

 I think the point still stands on things like this though, is that they won't be making a proper profit at 10 per pack unless they've got half a dozen machines all running at the same time.  And that's still nearly twice the price of other 10mm Fantasy ranges already on the market.  There's an interesting clash in the Warmaster community though, where many players are happy to buy recast figures because they refuse to pay the going rate for original WM products, but they'll now pay more than usual for a non-GW proxy because it's shiny and 3D printed?

I wouldn't pay 10 pounds for a pack of figures  Shocked when you could get three and with some manufacturers 4 bases of figures for 5-6 pounds !
also with my Warmaster army id rather use decent proxies than recasts. Personally I'm not really impressed with the 3d printing stuff, I cannot see the point of sitting for hours sanding down print lines. (I hate removing flash).
Regards
Sean
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fred.
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« Reply #156 on: 30 November 2020, 08:23:02 AM »

Regarding the Victrix 12mm stuff. I picked up a single Pz IV as a test model. Its a very nice casting, easy to assemble. The material seems more like standard model kit plastic than a resin.

Size wise the hull is almost identical in size to a Pithead PzIV, but the turret of the Victrix one is bigger, Ive struggled to find a photo from the right angle to compare, but I think the Victrix one is more correct. I only have an old Pendraken Pz IV and its is much smaller than either.





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sultanbev
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« Reply #157 on: 30 November 2020, 02:53:40 PM »

Interesting how the variations in how far back the turret goes over the engine deck vents go:

http://www.dererstezug.com/images/Tanks/panzer2.gif
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Orcs
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« Reply #158 on: 30 November 2020, 06:48:26 PM »

Interesting how the variations in how far back the turret goes over the engine deck vents go:

http://www.dererstezug.com/images/Tanks/panzer2.gif

I from looking at some drawings In the books I have being picky :-

The bustle on the Pithead model is too short.
The turret of the old Pendraken one is a bit narrow
The turret of the Victrix one is in the correct place at the rear, but should be nearer the hatches on the hull front.

However ,these are wargames models. they are all in good proportion, and  I doubt you would notice any of this on the table top, and not unless they were place together as below.

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fred.
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« Reply #159 on: 30 November 2020, 08:22:40 PM »

Indeed, Id always thought the Pithead one looked fine, it was only when seeing the Victrix one I looked at the proportions / positioning again.

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hammurabi70
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« Reply #160 on: 03 December 2020, 08:06:59 PM »

I think 3d printing has a way to go before it competes with the Mainstream manufacture of metal vehicles and figures.

Personally I'm not really impressed with the 3d printing stuff, I cannot see the point of sitting for hours sanding down print lines. (I hate removing flash).

Agreed. Tough enough to get figures painted without having to go through the time and cost of becoming a self-taught 3D printer equipped with all the necessary gear. If it ever gets to be as simple as photocopying or printing it might be worthwhile but right now I am unconvinced.
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Orcs
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« Reply #161 on: 03 December 2020, 09:38:43 PM »

But I'm of the opinion that companies like Pendraken will start selling 3D files along with their physical figures, once there's a system in place to keep people from just giving the files away.

You are talking about digital files. There is no way you can stop people giving them away.  There is always a way to crack anything digital and get if for free.  Look at the huge household names that have been successfully hacked.

You can buy current top selling music albums for as little as 1.50 if you know the sites to go to.  If you want to go a bit further into the "dodgy" parts of the internet you can get them for free. Likewise you can get the latest console games for 2 each if you know where to look. The saving grace with them is most players want to play online, which leaves you open to being caught. If you are solo player there is no chance of that.

You can also get "Key generators" that will generate you a Serial number for the software you want.  You simply tell the program the software you want and it will generate a key for it.  No only that, the manufacture will recognize it as genuine and automatically give you the free updates to that software.

Some manufacturers did get wise to this and try and send blocking code in the updates. So you simply take the computer offline if the process you are using it for -say photoshop or Corel Draw  does not require you to access the internet.

I used to part own a small computer company, and we would go into reasonable size businesses to supply new Hardware. We often made more money selling them licenses to pirate software they were running than replacing the hardware.  One place we went to had 50 computers running, and not one piece of software was legit.
 
My eldest daughter worked for a company that won awards for its online selling. The only legit piece of software on her PC was Windows. This is a company that in 2020 had assets of 4.5 Million and over 2 million cash in the bank.  So it could well afford to be legit as it has only dozen office staff.

So I think the problem will be that once someone has the files it will be virtually unpoliceable. Certainly for companies that do not have the money to invest in court proceedings.  You will stop one rogue person/company selling your files and they will simply pop up elsewhere under another name. The product will be identical to yours and if they have a good 3d printer it will be of the same quality.  But without the overheads they will sell it for fractions of the lowest price you could sell it for.
 





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flamingpig0
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« Reply #162 on: 03 December 2020, 11:27:19 PM »

I am reminded of Clarke's Law: If a distinguished but elderly scientist says something is possible, he is probably right. If he says something is impossible, he is almost certainly wrong.

(The great Clarke lived a bit before the age in which all decent people felt uncomfortable or indignant about the implications of masculine pronouns in such cases.)

I have met his brother Fred
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Battleback
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« Reply #163 on: 04 December 2020, 07:07:57 PM »

You are talking about digital files. There is no way you can stop people giving them away.  There is always a way to crack anything digital and get if for free.  Look at the huge household names that have been successfully hacked.

You can buy current top selling music albums for as little as 1.50 if you know the sites to go to.  If you want to go a bit further into the "dodgy" parts of the internet you can get them for free. Likewise you can get the latest console games for 2 each if you know where to look. The saving grace with them is most players want to play online, which leaves you open to being caught. If you are solo player there is no chance of that.

You can also get "Key generators" that will generate you a Serial number for the software you want.  You simply tell the program the software you want and it will generate a key for it.  No only that, the manufacture will recognize it as genuine and automatically give you the free updates to that software.

Some manufacturers did get wise to this and try and send blocking code in the updates. So you simply take the computer offline if the process you are using it for -say photoshop or Corel Draw  does not require you to access the internet.

I used to part own a small computer company, and we would go into reasonable size businesses to supply new Hardware. We often made more money selling them licenses to pirate software they were running than replacing the hardware.  One place we went to had 50 computers running, and not one piece of software was legit.
 
My eldest daughter worked for a company that won awards for its online selling. The only legit piece of software on her PC was Windows. This is a company that in 2020 had assets of 4.5 Million and over 2 million cash in the bank.  So it could well afford to be legit as it has only dozen office staff.

So I think the problem will be that once someone has the files it will be virtually unpoliceable. Certainly for companies that do not have the money to invest in court proceedings.  You will stop one rogue person/company selling your files and they will simply pop up elsewhere under another name. The product will be identical to yours and if they have a good 3d printer it will be of the same quality.  But without the overheads they will sell it for fractions of the lowest price you could sell it for.
I'm not going to say that files won't get pirated but Valve is now a 10 billion dollar company selling only digital files. And that's in a huge market, our hobby tiny in comparison so there should be way less people trying to hack Wargaming 3D printings systems.

But companies will need to offer more more then 3D files to discourage theft. My guess is that a company's will need to focus on developing their own game systems where players can not only buy files but get immersed into the game. Think of applications similar Table Top Simulator that could be available to people that buy into the game to learn how to play, maybe phone apps etc.

If 3D printing gets to the point where it's more mainstream (and that's still a big if), it would make very little difference where you buy your historical files from, becouse the user can scale them how they please so what would set them apart would be the game system. Rules, models files with the proper baseing, game aids, how they are pre-supported for printing as well as what the company offers beyond files and rules. That's where fantasy games will always have an advantage over historicals, in fantasy games you create everything. For historicals does it really matter where you get your M4 Sherman tank file from, if you can scale it to whatever size you want? Probably not, so you'll need to offer more to hook players.

It's anybodys guess what will become of 3D printing. But we have seen rapid improvements over the last few years in price and quality. 20 years from now it might be as common as a microwave or go the way of the VCR.

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Gwydion
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« Reply #164 on: 04 December 2020, 08:31:08 PM »

Will it be able to print my personal jet pack?
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