Current Climate of Wargaming?

Started by Leon, 26 August 2017, 09:09:20 PM

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Ray Rivers

28 November 2020, 04:27:07 PM #135 Last Edit: 28 November 2020, 04:30:44 PM by Ray Rivers
Dunno, Leon.

I think the competition from 3D printing, minis wise, will begin with 10mm.

Here are some elves spearman from Printing in Detail:



6 sprues of 5 minis for 10GBP.

You can see the detail on these minis really well in this video:


Big Insect

28 November 2020, 05:13:48 PM #136 Last Edit: 28 November 2020, 05:20:55 PM by Big Insect
I bought some of these - they are very nice - I had them 'enlarged' to 15mm to go with an existing army - the only issue with doing that was that the bases also got proportionately bigger!
But they add some very nice variety to my existing Wood elves.

But normally I am very anti plastics especially in the bigger scales - some of the recent 28mm plastic ranges are coming out closer to 35mm but then I have always loved metal figures at all scales. The quality of the sculpting can be very good in the injection molding ranges - such as the Perry Miniature WotR medieval range. But I bought some Vitrex by accident on eBay and they went straight back up for sale.

I have some resin 10mm Dropzone Commander vehicles - but again the scale creep is very obvious (& unnecessary) plus a lot of the sculps have huge (& again unnecessary - IMHO) integral bases incorporated into the casting/modelling. Thick and clumsy.

There are some really lovely 28mm (metal) ranges appearing - such as the Aventine ancient range - the Central Asian Turks and Sassanids are glorious.
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Leon

Quote from: Ray Rivers on 28 November 2020, 04:27:07 PM
I think the competition from 3D printing, minis wise, will begin with 10mm.

Here are some elves spearman from Printing in Detail:

I've got some of those in the workshop, one of our sculptors sent them over to have a look at.  They look really good and there's definitely potential there.  Some of the detailing is a little less pronounced than a normal 10mm figure, so I don't know if that would make it harder for your brush to pick it out?  Or if you just paint on detail yourself where needed.

I think the point still stands on things like this though, is that they won't be making a proper profit at £10 per pack unless they've got half a dozen machines all running at the same time.  And that's still nearly twice the price of other 10mm Fantasy ranges already on the market.  There's an interesting clash in the Warmaster community though, where many players are happy to buy recast figures because they refuse to pay the goiing rate for original WM products, but they'll now pay more than usual for a non-GW proxy because it's shiny and 3D printed?

This leads into a larger issue that the industry faces which is the part-time pricing vs full-time workload.  It's taken decades for this to finally begin to rectify itself, as more and more businesses became full-time entities and the pricing levels were raised to account for that, but 3D printing could start to reverse that process. 

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Steve J

From memory, an alumimium injection mould tool will give a run of around 100,000 mouldings, with a hardened steel one of around a million plus, so both more than enough I would have thought. They are becoming very cheap relatively speaking, when made in South Korea or China. So if you look at the price per moulding, they can be cheaper than someone spinning a mould. However it's the upfront tooling cost that's the issue for most companies, but again that's coming down.

As for part-time 'producers', you can go online in Bristol and put up a part for printing and choose the cheapest amongst those that respond, should you wish to do so. Speaking with a former colleague, most of these services are being 'run' at less than true cost, as they are 'subsidised' by full-time jobs. This also applies to graphic design and printing etc. I think this will develop like this for quite some time and is perfect for those limited runs or one offs that you can't get from the main manufacturers.

Ray Rivers

Well, Leon, I guess that is why they call it a "disruptive" technology.  ;)

Appears ya'll are watching developments closely especially since there are so many unknowns. Still, even with long print times, I would imagine that with the proper software you could start the process at any time remotely and cue orders as you get them. As you say though, you are going to need a bunch of machines and given how fast things are developing today's machine maybe totally noncompetitive with one in 2 years.

Personally I found the detail on the elves quite good, though to be quite honest I am not too keen on the idea of having to cut off the supports, especially when you might be talking about 10 per sculpt.

I might at some time in the future buy some just to review. I'm not a real elves fan to be quite honest.  [-(

And yes, I still prefer metal.  :x

Orcs

Just had a look at the Printed in detail website, the number of supports on the dire wolves looks really awkward to cut away
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John Cook

3D printed wargame miniatures at the moment, certainly 10mm/1:144/1:150, seem, to me, to a bit of a 'curate's egg'.  I bought some 12mm/1:144 WW2 vehicles from Butler's Printed Models, which sells at prices that compare with Pendraken, Pithead, Minifigs et al but they were not very good to be honest.  The proportion was OK but they exhibited a peculiar ridge-like series of lines on all surfaces.  These were particularly pronounced on curved or angled surfaces such that the amount of filler and work to remedy them was hardly worth the effort. 

On the other hand, I also have some aircraft and vehicles from Shapeways 3D Printing Services which were very good.  Some had a rough textured finish which hardly notices when painted, others were much smoother.  They were all, however, very expensive in comparison to metal and resin models.

I have avoided 3D since, unless it is a source of an obscure vehicle I can't scratch build myself, because the quality seem to vary enormously and you really are buying a 'pig in a poke'.

I would like to know why there is this variety in quality?  Is it something to do with developing technology?  I am sure the 3D printing is a technology of the future but it seems a bit immature at the moment.

sultanbev

I am buying all my 10mm vehicles and a lot of 1/72 vehicles in 3d print at the moment. Any loss of detail is more than made up for by the light weight and availability of otherwise unavailable models, and the proportions are absolutely spot on, as long as the master 3d file is correct. Those than can will do them in 1/160 scale for me, which is great.

My 10mm alternative 1941 French army has FCM F1 fortress tanks, Renault R-40, SAu-40 and Lorraine 38L APCs alongside my Pendraken FCM-2c and Char D2. Am hoping to be able to get Lorraine 39L APC and Char B1ter soon. I have a company of Is-7 for my 1950s Soviets, just waiting on some FV215 to take them on with, heh.

Most of the sellers can't seem to do 1/160, one that can told me it's because he uses a 1mm nozzle as apposed to 2mm. He also is doing more in 3d printed resin rather than PLA, especially for the smaller models, which is a bit more expensive but retains the detail better. The sellers seem to be moving off ebay and onto Etsy, or have their own websites.

I do use Butler 3d print too, not perfect as John says, but the advantages outweigh the disadvantages for me.

For my 1/72 World of Tanks collection, it's great to be able to get models of prototypes, minor nations AFVs, and what-ifs for about £5-£12, when the resin equivalent (if available) costs £30-£50 with all the hassles of resin and etched brass. Although I prefer plastic kits, the reality is there is a huge range of models that will never see the light of day in kit form, just because you can sell 100x Maus tanks for every Romanian R1 tankette or whatever. The 3d printed tanks do have all the issues with taking off the support material  - it's the opposite of kit construction, almost destruction - you have to be quite forceful with the cutters and stanley knife, which is counter-intiuitive when you are used to building plastic kits. So you do have to look up photograph references, just in case you take off some obscure box or detail by accident.

None of these are modellers vehicles, they are wargames pieces, but I am happy to display them once painted. I have a French FCM F1 fortress tank in 1/72, and an even bigger K-Wagen, the nearest resin kit to these costs about £80!

Shapeways is a bit odd, as you can find a lot of models but at silly prices, I really don't get how it works.

You can get 3d printed model kits, I recently saw a Somua S-35 in 1/72 for £50 on Ebay, so there is an emerging market catering for the more detailed end of the market, but a Heller plastic kit or Deagostini diecast for a fiver will do me.

One area I don't see an immediate challenge to metal manufacturers from 3d printing is figures. 3D printing doesn't do round surfaces well, so I'll be getting my infantry and cavalry in 10mm for a while yet.

The new 10mm WW2 tanks from PSC are going to be 1/160 in their new scio-cast, which is another emerging technology to think about.

Next I'm looking for reasonably priced 1/144 aircraft, which may be another market corner to steal with some kind of 3d printing. Any 1/144 He-111F and Martin B10 bombers out there?

Mark

Battleback

As a person that recently got into 3D printing, I'll give you my perspective from a hobby point of view.

First the good aspects:

3D resin printers have gotten very affordable ($200 or less ) and with the next generation Mono Screen printers, they now print twice as fast with twice the resolution (4k compared to 2k) and the screens last twice as long then the first generation SLA printers.

Does this mean I'm done buying figures from Pandraken? No! But I'll buy less then I did before. For instance I probably won't need to buy AFV for my WW2 projects becouse Thingiverse has lots of free models but I will still buy my infantry from Pendraken and others bits. Same with buildings/terrian, there seems to a fair amount of files to print, some free some paid.

One factor no one has mentioned yet and that is the fun factor. We all enjoy the hobby and 3D printing your own stuff is fun! Also you have flexibility to design and print your own files. For instance I uploaded a 40mm base I designed for my Artillery (the figures are from Pendraken). It was dead easy to design and printed out. Now I only needed a few bases so it was easy. I don't think I would print all my bases becouse I don't want to tie up my printer making bases, so I'll continue to buy my bases from Pendraken.

Now the bad:

Resin is smelly, toxic and messy which requires lots of added stuff (gloves, cleaners, paper towels etc.)! Don't believe people that say you can just set up a printer in your living room and you won't smell anything. I set mine up in the basement and after one print you could smell it upstairs. Also I got a headache instantly from using the Eco friendly resin which is supposed to be less toxic. So I had to build a vent box to put it in and vent it outside. Now I can print and work in the same room without any issues. So resin printing is far from plug and print.

My conclusion:

I love 3D, it's a terrific tool for my hobby needs. With mono screens now coming out its getting closer to the point of really effecting the hobby but I don't think it will until theres a true non-toxic resin available. Cleaning and curing has gotten a lot easier with 2 in 1 dedicated stations available for around $130 but you still have to deal with the used IPA/water but that isn't too bad.

Sometime in the future I think we'll see a 3D file service akin to Steam that will change the industry. Right now it's not that easy to find files you want for free or pay, it's a really hit or miss affair. But when the printers/Resin reach the point of mass use I'm confident a file service will follow. Not sure how that will effect companies that make and sell miniatures but I would think that the bigger companies will be OK but the smaller ones might not be around, but that's pure speculation from just a hobby guy.



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fsn

I think the future of wargaming is the spoon feed, everything in one place solution.

I've been watching some Bolt Action and Warhammer videos on YouTube, and the popularity of this type of systems is quite appealing if you don't want to do the research. Everything is handed to you on a plate, and you have no need, in fact there is a disincentive, to stray from the product.

Buy the figures, the rules, the paint guides, the paint, the scenery ... everything from one supplier. 
 
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Ray Rivers

Quote from: Orcs on 28 November 2020, 10:42:09 PM
Just had a look at the Printed in detail website, the number of supports on the dire wolves looks really awkward to cut away

In the video the dude says that you need to put the mini in warm water first so that when you cut the supports you don't do damage to the sculpt.

The whole "supports" thing turns me off.

Battleback

Quote from: Ray Rivers on 29 November 2020, 09:13:56 PM
In the video the dude says that you need to put the mini in warm water first so that when you cut the supports you don't do damage to the sculpt.

The whole "supports" thing turns me off.
Supports aren't bad at all when done right, usually all I have to do is peel them off with very little clipping and no hot water etc. If their are selling the models with supports to stay on during shipping then basically it's over done for shipping purposes. It's different when you print your own stuff.

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Ray Rivers

Quote from: fsn on 29 November 2020, 08:32:41 PM
I think the future of wargaming is the spoon feed, everything in one place solution.

I've been watching some Bolt Action and Warhammer videos on YouTube, and the popularity of this type of systems is quite appealing if you don't want to do the research. Everything is handed to you on a plate, and you have no need, in fact there is a disincentive, to stray from the product.

Buy the figures, the rules, the paint guides, the paint, the scenery ... everything from one supplier. 
 

I don't think that is a bad thing actually. Especially for new folks who may be interested in taking up the hobby.

When I first became interested in wargaming one of the guys from the store I wondered into invited me over to his house for the Saturday afternoon game. They explained the rules and stuff and then let me play with them. That was the spark that got me to dive in. Afterwards, I bought the rule book, the minis, the paint... and started adding my troops to those brought to the weekend game. We played the ACW, Napoleonics and Ancients. 40+ years later, I'm still at it.

Once you get that spark... it can quickly become a flame.

Battleback

Quote from: Ray Rivers on 29 November 2020, 10:27:47 PM
I don't think that is a bad thing actually. Especially for new folks who may be interested in taking up the hobby.

When I first became interested in wargaming one of the guys from the store I wondered into invited me over to his house for the Saturday afternoon game. They explained the rules and stuff and then let me play with them. That was the spark that got me to dive in. Afterwards, I bought the rule book, the minis, the paint... and started adding my troops to those brought to the weekend game. We played the ACW, Napoleonics and Ancients. 40+ years later, I'm still at it.

Once you get that spark... it can quickly become a flame.
I 100% agree, companies need to take that approach with their games in order to hook people into the hobby. You need to offer the one stop shop othewise people get turned off by having figuring out everything they need to play. A lot of them will just go look for a board game to play instead.

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Orcs

Quote from: Battleback on 29 November 2020, 08:08:17 PM

But I'll buy less then I did before. For instance I probably won't need to buy AFV for my WW2 projects

This brings t a few things to think about:-

1. If vehicles are more profitable than figures (easier to pack less faffing about etc), will the manufacturers even be able to keep going with a loss of this part of their sales?

2. Will this mean large price increases for figures ?

3. Will they bother to produce vehicles at all?

4. Will they even say WW2 / modern  is not really commercially viable , so we will stop producing ranges for that period and stick to the periods where the entire range will be
    bought from us?

You could then be left with any vehicle you wanted in 3d but no decent figures to field with them.

The cynics are right nine times out of ten. -Mencken, H. L.

Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well. - Robert Louis Stevenson