Current Climate of Wargaming?

Started by Leon, 26 August 2017, 09:09:20 PM

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Steve J

QuoteWhile modern houses seem  to be very small, I can see the use of smaller scales getting round this issue.

I think this is one reason for the recent rise in skirmish games on a 2' x 2' table or slightly larger. Alongside this is the fact that you need relatively few figures for theses sort of games, which is easy on the pocket and pretty quick in terms of painting.

Orcs

Quote from: Steve J on 02 March 2019, 05:59:00 PM
I think this is one reason for the recent rise in skirmish games on a 2' x 2' table or slightly larger. Alongside this is the fact that you need relatively few figures for theses sort of games, which is easy on the pocket and pretty quick in terms of painting.


Skirmish games like the one I played last night are great and have their place, but I like the look of a army of massed ranks that looks like an army.  Hence my preference for 10mm.




The cynics are right nine times out of ten. -Mencken, H. L.

Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well. - Robert Louis Stevenson

steve_holmes_11

Quote from: Orcs on 02 March 2019, 06:05:08 PM

Skirmish games like the one I played last night are great and have their place, but I like the look of a army of massed ranks that looks like an army.  Hence my preference for 10mm.

Much like Dudley "Tarzan" Moore's right leg - I've nothing against skirmish games.

The best of them provide great entertainment, without the marathon runner's fatigue associated with some of the bigger battle games.
My original reference to Sturgeon's rule was intended to reflect that a bandwagon is currently running, and a lot of purveyors of small beer have jumped on board. (Good luck if you're google translating that).

In a completely different context, the Rock and Roll composer Chuck Berry once explained the attraction of his live shows.
"All my songs are around 2 and a half minutes long, if I play one you dislike, you can go to the bar (or the John), and when you get back I'll be playing a classic that you like."

Good skirmish games are like that, the occasional bout can be a dud if one player starts out with a few bad rolls.
But it's over in 30 minutes, so you can easily reset the table and play another.

A 6 hour big battle may look better, but a dud scenario will burn off a whole day.
The good ones are very good and the bad ones are awful.



I've enjoyed reading the recent responses, quite an antidote to my own gloomy outlook.
That's the spirit fellows, where there's lead there's hope!!

FierceKitty

03 March 2019, 01:26:37 AM #108 Last Edit: 03 March 2019, 02:04:19 AM by FierceKitty
No objections to skirmish games per se, and they're clearly the first choice for many genres - WWI dogfights, wild west gunfights, zombie hunting or dungeon crawling, including most so-called sci-fi, and gangster stuff would be absurd with large forces; in reality there would be no grand tactical intelligence trying to coordinate the action, and it would be silly to try to impose it.

Which said, as one who fell in love with ancients because of a ridiculous picture on the first page of the first Asterix book, showing a massed line of grotesquely anachronistic Romans (I was a pre-teen colonial, so judge me with mercy), I am very much committed to the big battle spectacle. For me, wargaming is about being Wellington, not Sharp; if I want the skirmisher experience, I'll play paintball. I am, therefore, a little worried that there could be a generation growing up who really think historical games involve a cuirassier, two hussars, a grenadier, two howitzers, and Marshal Ney. And I have seen GW-influenced games, put on by people who were experienced enough to know better, that went that way - I recall an alleged refight of Zama in 28mm with one testudo of Trajanic legionaries, four elements of Numidians, one block of Celts, and some proxied Mars-knows-whats. If you don't believe me, Google-check out the overwhelmingly skirmish treatment of Sengoku Japanese combat (the way it gets called "samurai", whereas the ashigaru were about 95% of Japanese armies, is symptomatic).

OK, I'm getting off my soapbox. Off to set up the afternoon's refight of Lepanto (using my Spanish Trafalgar fleet to proxy the Christian forces, and a mix of Jutland and Salamis forces for the Turks). It'll be a grand spectacle, with no fewer than four models a side (two unpainted, but who has time to paint these days?).
I don't drink coffee to wake up. I wake up to drink coffee.

Norm

03 March 2019, 06:54:16 AM #109 Last Edit: 03 March 2019, 08:04:30 AM by Norm
Hopefully wargaming will continue to be a thing that people can enjoy at the personal level, without that modern compulsion of having to conform to what the latest internet voice is telling you what to do / think etc.

I tend to come from the point of view that we are lucky to have so much wargaming choice today and I am grateful that all the brilliant computer graphics in the world etc, did not destroy this hobby by pushing it into commercial non-viability. Indeed even the 'greying' of the hobby scare-mongering of the past 15 - 20 years has not really come to pass. I am guessing that today, more money is being spent in this hobby than ever before and the wargame shows that I have attended over the last couple of years have shown a significant diversity in age range, with a lot of younger people people present ...... though these days, I am thinking everyone is looking younger .... you know, the old 'policemen are getting younger' sketch.

My local wargame store has a goodly number of young people. the oldies waltz in, buy a bottle of paint and a brush and go, but the younger ones are buying fizzy drinks and playing the games and 'hanging out there' and 'really' supporting the store. Boardgaming is really strong amongst this generation, though there is a greater crossover with boardgames that include figures.

The thing is though, they are not playing 2000 points ancients etc with massed armies of whatever scale and why should they, that's what I like, not what they like. They like the latest mega hit 'all in a box' game with a handful of figures that may or may not get painted - who cares, they are gamers, having fun and keeping a shop on the high street open, that I can still go into to buy my paints and brushes.

I have just browsed another part of the internet and someone new to a subject asked for some broad brushed advice. A kindly soul gave some, then the expert came along and of course put every one right! On another day, if expert opinion had been asked, then that would have been a great response, but in this situation ..... what a wargaming Bore!

I can look at a Bolt Action game and see a Katyusha fire its rocket load 300 metres to attack a truck of infantry or as exampled above, the Testudo taking their place in the battle line and thinking "that's not for me", but that just comes from insight into the subject and a desire to simulate. If you don't know or don't care about the capabilities of the Katyusha, but just want a really good game with your latest pride and joy that delivers 'x' for 'y' points and you are having that ton of fun with your mates ... well isn't that an OK thing?

I have just been browsing the Neil Thomas Napoleonic book and his scenarios are catering for something like a few French line infantry units, a cavalry unit and artillery unit - oh and course the Old Guard, all rubbing shoulders on a 4' x 4' table, producing something like the old teasers ....... but that is exactly the sort of game that brought me into the hobby with my Airfix figures as a teenager and that hobby button was hit just due to the absolute pleasure of the moment and of simplicities, it would only be later that I would need to know how many buttons were on a Hussar's jacket thingy and in truth, there is a big part of me that would be more than happy to go back to that earlier simple gaming.

Anyway, my point is that the hobby still seems like the perfect refuge to be able to enjoy the game that YOU like played in the WAY that YOU like, which rather makes judgement or opinion on the 'real way to play (and there is some) just so tedious and boring.  

In my younger years, we seemed to have 3 main areas of life, work, sleep and play. In 2019, we have work, sleep, play and now the internet ..... the biggest robbing time sink influence of personal creative / relationship time ever and probably the main contribution why we don't paint 300 - 500 figure armies anymore! :-)

Steve J

Quotethe hobby still seems like the perfect refuge to be able to enjoy the game that YOU like played in the WAY that YOU like

Wise words indeed Norm.

QuoteIn my younger years, we seemed to have 3 main areas of life, work, sleep and play. In 2019, we have work, sleep, play and now the internet ..... the biggest robbing time sink influence of personal creative / relationship time ever and probably the main contribution why we don't paint 300 - 500 figure armies anymore! :-)

Some 15 odd years ago I might spend about 5 evenings a week painting one Mordheim figure because I enjoyed it and had the time. Now time seems a precious commodity and I can get an easy gaming fix by simply checks various fora (plural of forums?) and Blogs.


Paper

03 March 2019, 08:14:54 AM #111 Last Edit: 03 March 2019, 08:18:55 AM by Paper
This is a force seen the whole world over and in too many markets to mention.

The boons of technology make starting a business easier and that gives rise to lots of smaller businesses that move quickly. The technology is  eventually leveraged by larger slower businesses with greater efficiency and power that can devour the smaller companies.or replace them.

We were in a bloom a few years ago and we are seeing the natural contraction and consolidation. The landscape for board game publishers is also in a contraction with lots of smaller publishers dropping out or pooling together.

As for mass battles vs skirmish it has everything to do with upfront investment. I try to make the latest greatest mass appeal board and card games that get derided on BGG while also being a"favorite of the spouse and kids".

These lighter games are gateway games. The hobby was nearly dead in America before wizkids' mageknight / hero clix brought minis gaming into the realm of mere mortals. Those fans later picked up the brush and glue and now we have all kinds of great stuff coming from America. Matt Wilson of privateer press credits Wizkids for the renaissance of American minitures.

Also pricing too low is an extreme danger. Lots of small companies don't charge enough and either can't  survive a small problem or provide enough service to make their products worthwhile. High production values are extremely important and desirable. Good Christ the cover art and layout Of DBA likely set the hobby back.

Raider4

Quote from: Steve J on 03 March 2019, 08:12:03 AM
Now time seems a precious commodity and I can get an easy gaming fix by simply checks various fora (plural of forums?) and Blogs.

I know everyone grumbles (or worries . . .) about how much we spend on this hobby, but I reckon most people who are into minis and wargaming are more time-poor (or space-poor) than they are cash-poor.

And there are certainly much more expensive hobbies around. In my office there are at least three golfers, one (amateur) triathelete and someone who does scuba-diving. They can all spend more in a weekend than I spend in a year on this.

Raider4

Quote from: Paper on 03 March 2019, 08:14:54 AM
. . . the cover art and layout Of DBA likely set the hobby back.

Oh, you're not wrong there! Truly terrible cover art, the inside doesn't get much better :)

Raider4

Quote from: FierceKitty on 03 March 2019, 01:26:37 AM
I recall an alleged refight of Zama in 28mm with one testudo of Trajanic legionaries, four elements of Numidians, one block of Celts, and some proxied Mars-knows-whats.

I recall seeing an alleged refight of Zama that comprised of about 20 guys with spears & shield ("The Barbarian Horde!") vs 8 chariots with guys & gals in golden armour and armed with repeating crossbows . . .

steve_holmes_11

Quote from: Raider4 on 03 March 2019, 11:11:57 AM
I recall seeing an alleged refight of Zama that comprised of about 20 guys with spears & shield ("The Barbarian Horde!") vs 8 chariots with guys & gals in golden armour and armed with repeating crossbows . . .


It sounds lie the one where Russell Crowe shouts "All stick together".
Which suggests that inaccurate refights have been with us almost as long as fights.

Confession time: I used to refight Waterloo using 4 boxes of Airfix soldiers.

Heedless Horseman

There is also a place for 'Nostalgia...Retro' gaming...for 'those of a certain age'...and who wish to go back!  :(
In my youth, there was Airfix 1/76 and Roco Minitanks 1/87 for WW2....and what an 'orrible mix they were...but that was what there was. I have recently been buying both, just for the hell of it, (Roco not now in production...(Bl**dy awfull critturs!). But I rather like the idea that I may, someday, want to just 'do' a very basic 'table-top' game..tanks, plastic fir trees and Airfix soldiers! LOL!

For Naps...in my day, Hinchcliffe 25mm were the figures to drool over...in books or mags..however deformed!  ;D So, now, as eyes deteriorate, I am accumulating 25's. I just 'like' the 'old school' ranks of very similar poses rather than the modern 'battle in miniature' mix of 'combat' stands in much better 28mm sculpts in metal or plastic!  :o

I just wish I would complete a 'project' and actually DO something with it...but, not being a 'gamer' , I have no club driven drive...and am more of a collector, dreaming of 'someday'...and butterfly buying the next thing that captures me 'on the net'. Indeed, 'Internet' availability' IS the current climate of Wargaming...so much choice!  :) :(
It was SO much simpler 'back then'!  :o
(40 Yrs ago. I should have been an Angry Young Man... but wasn't.
Now... I am an Old B******! )  ;)

Leman

I had some very enjoyable retro games when I got out They Died for Glory after probaly 15+ years. I think it is fair to say that over the years most of the games I have played have been ACW, FPW, SYW and Great Italian Wars, partly because these are the periods I most enjoy strudying, painting and playing and partly because these periods have produced the rules that I find most enjoyable to play. Many, many moons ago I played a set of Ancient rules, Hoplite Warfare. They were very old school, in the sense that they did include lots of factors, but they really did seem to capture the flavour of that period of warfare. This is probably because they were very period specific, rather than trying to cover the best part of 5000 years. I find it strange that one can find a number of sets of rules that cover the six month long FPW, but, to my knowledge, no real development of rules covering a specific period in the Ancient world, such as Alexander's campaigns, Caesar's conquest of Gaul or specifically Rome v the Sassanids.
The artist formerly known as Dour Puritan!

mmcv

Quote from: Leman on 26 November 2020, 11:49:07 AM
Many, many moons ago I played a set of Ancient rules, Hoplite Warfare. They were very old school, in the sense that they did include lots of factors, but they really did seem to capture the flavour of that period of warfare. This is probably because they were very period specific, rather than trying to cover the best part of 5000 years. I find it strange that one can find a number of sets of rules that cover the six month long FPW, but, to my knowledge, no real development of rules covering a specific period in the Ancient world, such as Alexander's campaigns, Caesar's conquest of Gaul or specifically Rome v the Sassanids.

There are a number of rules that focus in on period specific areas within the broad "Ancients" period. Like you say, there's some Hoplite specific ones, a fair few Roman centric ones and plenty of Dark Ages and Medieval era ones as well (e.g. I quite enjoy Soliders of God which is focused purely on the Crusades). I'm sure there's plenty out there for other periods, but the most popular ones do tend to cover all of pre-early gunpowder as you say, with varying degrees of success. Part of that I think comes down to a general abstraction of rules away from the old school "lots of factors" type of games to cleaner, more streamlined rules that add flavour in on top of the core rules, meaning its easier to have a central set of rules that can be adapted as needed. This is true of rule sets looking at gunpowder periods as well, they just have shorter windows (e.g. often decades and centuries rather than millenia) to cover, but it does exist there. E.g. Warlord attempt to cover most of the history of warfare with 4 rule sets (plus a couple for naval/air) that all share a pretty similar core with changes for flavour and tactical and technological differences between them.

I've noticed a lot of those interested in ancients tend to have a broader interest level across lots of different periods and conflicts, from the dawn of history through to modern warfare, rather than being hyperfocused in on a few specific periods as some gamers prefer to be. Those with a smaller focus seem to be mostly centered around a few specific conflicts, usually those in the last few centuries, which probably explains the plethora of rules for Napoleonics, WW2, SYW and so forth because there is a large base of gamers playing those conflicts specifically.

For those with a wider focus, it means having a few go-to rule set that you can use for a wide variety of armies that is still fun to play and gives enough flavour options to feel right is quite attractive, especially if you've a lot of different armies, and/or don't get to play very often so learning new rules each time can become tiresome. There's also the appeal of the competition circuit to those gamers who are drawn to such things, and those also require a level of rule clarity and detail that is perhaps not as necessary in scenario focused games.

I'd say there's also the fact that technological development increased exponentially once gunpowder started to play a role on the battlefield, as did our knowledge and records of historical warfare in more recent periods, so the tactical and technological differences between Cromwell and Napoleon are known in much more detail than those between Alexander and Caesar, and are generally assumed to be of greater significance, hence needing a greater variety of rule adaptions for a smaller period of time.

If you get very specific with a set of rules you can risk it becoming more simulation than wargame, which certainly appeals to some, but most I suspect want a good game with a decent amount of historical flavour and the minimum of frustration and head-scratching!

Ray Rivers

I was just perusing this thread out of interest because as far back as I can remember folks have been predicting the death of war gaming.

I personally can't really comment as I live in a small place in Spain where gaming appears to have little interest.

Having said that, I am surprised that no one has mentioned 3D printing. This is a disruptive technology that will one day have a huge impact on our lives. One can already see 3D printing moving into the small scale of miniatures.

It will be a significant factor in the (not far off) future, I believe.