Current Climate of Wargaming?

Started by Leon, 26 August 2017, 09:09:20 PM

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FierceKitty

Quote from: Leman on 27 August 2017, 05:59:23 PM
Mike's Models were bought out by Essex, who, as far as I'm aware, still hold the moulds and will cast to request.  I used to have a beautiful Italian Wars army using their figures but today it would probably be sold as Renaissance dwarfs.

Mike's Midgets, as we used to call them.
I don't drink coffee to wake up. I wake up to drink coffee.

FierceKitty

Quote from: Ithoriel on 27 August 2017, 06:23:56 PM
I suspect you save more stopping spending on women! :-)

Older men have the advantage there. Women value their experience and proven stamina.

(Next week, how to make 6mm wargaming armies from a bar of soap. Stay tuned.)
I don't drink coffee to wake up. I wake up to drink coffee.

Terry37

Interesting observation. I probably don't fit the mold of most wargamers in that I found a set of rules that fit my gaming needs almost 15 years ago, and my painting speed, so I am not interested in new rule sets. I am also a very happy 15 MM gamer, but due to the limitations of base sizes allowed in my rules I use many 10 MM, as well as some 6 MM figures to create my armies. I have absolutely no interest in game rules that push their line at high prices, i.e. Bolt Action, Konflict '47, and GW. Nothing wrong with them if they work for you, but they leave me cold.

I read some and scanned most of the replies here, and one thing I liked, which I believe FSN said, that is many of today's gamers seem to lack the desire to research and be creative - just give me what I need and what you say must be gospel. I think they miss a major part of the fun of the hobby. I love to research a project, and then to turn that research into a viable army with as many details as possible included. I also love the challenge of a conversion,and believe me, they don't all work out - but I don't give up and think about how to re-engineer it to make it what I want.

Lastly for me is the point of service. I've said before and still say it. If I receive what I feel is true customer service, then that vendor has me for life. For example, when I first placed an order with Pendraken, I was looking for bits to make flying horse. so needed some small-ish wings to fit to a 15 MM horse. I contacted Leon about a figure he offered, and told him why I was considering that figure. His reply not only gave me the dimensions, but said he'd be happy to send me just the wings at a lesser cost. That right there made me a life time Pendraken customer. Leon's interest in helping me with my project rather than just selling figures said it all. I only recently joined this forum, so feel a newbie still, but I've read such over and over in other's posts.

Locally I'd like to see more young people gaming, as it does seem to be a graying heritage these days - I played my first wargame in 1954. Will never forget it when my Renwal atomic cannon fired at an enemy truck and was determined to have done NO damage! There were some confusing rules in those early days.

So, I am probably not one to add much insight into this discussion except as things affect me directly. I will say I've given up ordering overseas made figures in the US because they seldom have what I want and so I never know when I am going to get what I need. I now order everything direct from the maker and it has worked beautifully, and for me it's worth the postage.

My thanks to and wishes for a long and prosperous business venture to Leon and the staff at Pendraken, and say thanks to the members of this forum, and to a few other great vendors who I feel are a step above so many.

Terry
"My heart has joined the thousand for a friend stopped running today." Mr. Richard Adams


Ithoriel

Interesting post Terry.

Lots there that chimes with my own experience ... however

Quote from: Terry37 on 28 August 2017, 03:56:08 AM
Locally I'd like to see more young people gaming, as it does seem to be a graying heritage these days - I played my first wargame in 1954.

I think this is probably true of historical tabletop figure games but for tabletop gaming as a whole and indeed gaming in general I don't think there have ever been so many 20 and 30-somethings involved in wargaming as there are now.
There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

Redstef

Many times I have thought that the hobby is on its last legs. The instant gratification of PC games, older interest group and lack of interest from younger potential gamers. But time and time again my views are changed when I visit major shows. They are packed with all ages with huge arrays of products to choose from. On reflection I feel I am judging the state of a hobby from my own immediate circumstances. My club, whilst well attended and active is composed almost entirely of people around my own age. The younger gamers I know tend to game around each others houses, even though I invite them, and prefer as has been said scifi /fantasy (both gamed at the club). Maybe it's a confidence thing. But I think the club's have a big influence on the industry side as well. I game and own many more periods than I did when I started simply because I played new games at a club.
  The everything in one place is less concerning to me. I feel it has its place in starting interest in new things which often expands out from there. I do agree that the research aspect will be missing but that will follow I'm sure with all its highs and lows finding out you've painted something wrong and deciding whether or not to repaint as you know it will be jumping out at you every time you use them. Luckily I'm past that now but it was probably a right of passage 😊. I prefer to use figures from the same manufacturer in my armies so tend to wait for the range to expand to cover most of what I want if it is a new range rather than have an incomplete one I can't use as the line is not finished.
 
"From each according to ability, to each according to need" Karl Marx.............I really need those figures

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agtfos

I think its just saturation. There are more companies and more startups (thanks to ks) than ever before. Back in the bad old days a show consisted of half a dozen stands and games and the choice was limited. Ive watched the availability of stuff grow and grow over the last 30 years, so now stuff that was very niche back then (spanish civil war) is now passe. We can now source virtually anything in one scale or another and the availability (and relative costs) of plastics have tempted some to scale switch - leaving them to dump old armies via ebay. For all of GWs dominance of the scifi and fantasy block, many upstart startups have moved on them, grabbing ex gw customers who, thanks to the internet, have discovered that there is a whole new world out there. Ditto Warlord, who have introduced historical gaming to a 28mm familiar audience of grown up GWers. From a buyers point of view we have never had it so good.
But, those who live by the net, die by it too. Whilst theres always another niche for the historical gamer to explore, for sci fi and fantasy things are pretty much of a muchness. Different models yes, different backgrounds yes, but unless theres a big IP behind it (star trek / star wars), then your audience has to be generated from the ground up. Your idea may be great, but so is the one of the guy/gal on the next stand. Differentation is the problem. There seems to be too many companies fighting over the same pot. Something had to give.
I think that the hobby is pretty healthy right now, and i was surprised how well it weathered the 2007/8/9 etc crash and austerity. But right now supply has outstripped demand growth. With brexit and global uncertanty We live, as the chinese curse says 'in interesting times',
Meanwhile look out for Stonk Games first kickstarter, coming soonish. LOL.

fsn

What's happening at shows. I went to St Helens this year and it was less crowded than in previous years. Is this the same at other show, or did I just strike it lucky?

IIRC the Great Wargaming Survey suggested that although SciFi/Fantasy was predominant amongst the young, there is a migration to historical wargaming at about age 40.

I wonder also if there's a generational thing. "Achtung Schweinehund!: A Boy's Own Story of Imaginary Combat" by Harry Pearson put it into context for me. I had grandparents and uncles who fought in the war, and as a child watched those classic British films like "The Dambusters", "Above us the Waves" and "Ill Met By Moonlight". Warfare, particularly WWII, was the background beat to our lives - with the imminent threat of WWIII and those nasty Commies sweeping across West Germany given half a chance.

This pattern took a kicking in 1977 when Star Wars made its appearance. Suddenly, SciFi was not all rubber tenticles and polystyrene rocks (yes Star Trek, I'm looking at you - and stop grinning Dr Who, you're not entirely innocent) and could be grandiose and exciting and ... cool. Add to that the advent of D&D in the '70s, the fall of the Berlin Wall and by the early '90's the entire zeitgeist had changed.  (For me the Radio 4 versions of "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings" made me a fantasy player for some years.)

When did the explosion in the hobby happen? If I look back to 1974 editions of Military Modelling I see adverts for so few manufacturers - Hinchcliffe, Lamming, Peter Laing, Greenwood and Ball, Minifigs - but when I look at a magazine today there are literally hundreds of companies advertising.

What do I think will happen? I think there will be a few full-service systems dominating. As I hinted before, Games Workshop seems to have risen Zombie like, and Flames of War seems to do a good job at capturing WWII gamers. I nearly fell foul of it myself, until I found the one true scale. There will be a market for WWII, SF/Fantasy, ACW and possibly Napoleonics. I suspect some of the more esoteric periods may wither somewhat as budgets become tighter.

What could change that is another "Star Wars" moment. I wouldn't mind betting that sales of fantasy figures go up with viewing of "Game of Thrones".  If HBO does that for "the Illiad" then we may have a flash of interest in the Trojan Wars. I sense that the superehero genre of films and TV series is peaking - though the good work done by "Wonder Woman" will undoubtedly be undermined by the rash of very poor Marvel TV offerings ("Jessica Jones", "Luke Cage", "Iron Fist", and whaterver that new series is that ropes poor Daredevil in with those 3). Westerns bump along but haven't sparked, and despite being the centenary poor old WWI never seems to be a popular period.

So why am I whittering about popular culture? Because that's where the next big thing will come from. What's it going to be? No idea.

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Steve J

QuoteWhat's happening at shows. I went to St Helens this year and it was less crowded than in previous years. Is this the same at other show, or did I just strike it lucky?

Well Salute was certainly busy well into the afternoon, whereas last year it seemed to slacken off a bit. But then Salute is an exception in terms of size and place in the country. To be honest I haven't attended a show, other than some small local ones, for a few years now. I no longer feel the need compared to say 10 years ago. So many manufacturers now have a good online presence, which wasn't the case then. I know 2-3 companies have given up attending most, if not all, shows as the costs are too great, talk less of the time and effort involved.

I go to shows for the games and not really the shopping side of the hobby. I normally pick up a pre-order from Pendraken and that's about it. Will I continue to attend shows? Only if the quality and variety of games increase. From what I've seen on Blog show reports, there seems to be a greater variety of games and scales 'up North' compared to 'down South'. I would love to attend Partizan and some other shows, but given current work/life balance, they are simply too far away.

I know my friends are of the same opinion, so this is not good for the hobby as a whole. Maybe we are a minority? It would be interesting to hear what others think on this.

Leon

The shows could be a whole discussion of its own I think!  There are too many of them in the UK, over 50 I think now so almost every weekend of the year.  I know some traders who go to the same region of the UK 3 times within about 6 weeks, which is crazy.  People don't have the time to attend (or money to spend at) that many shows in close proximity, but the trader is spending three lots of travel, fuel, accommodation and stand costs to go to them all.  If those three events were merged into one, you would have a bigger event with more visitors, a bigger spending pool for the traders and only a single set of costs to attend the show.  

For about 5 years now we've seen the shows drop off after lunch, as a lot of people prefer to walk in, buy their stuff and leave.  I suppose time is at a premium in all facets of life now, so a lot of folks don't have the time to sit and play some games, or walk around socialising.

I believe that there'll be a turning point in the next few years where we start to see shows disappearing from the calendar, either because the organising clubs/individuals tire of doing it for little to no return, or they run out of volunteers to help on the day, or they lose traders and the event isn't sustainable anymore.  Almost every trader I speak to on the circuit is looking to reduce the number of shows they attend, so it's only a matter of time before that has an affect on the shows themselves.
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petercooman

Now I only visit crisis, but I can honestly say that I'm a drop in, spend 500, get out kind of guy.  :d

Nothing to do with the show, just with the fact my son has a soccer game on Saturday (usually).

I don't think that's a bad thing though, spending is spending, no matter how fast or slow you do it.

Also, something worth nothing, shows like crisis give free models to the fist 1000 or so entrants, so this might explain some of the 'busy early on' mentality.


Leman

York and Derby have given free figures in the past, and York also has the advantage of letting the over-60s in for free. Although Phalanx is my local show it must have the worst lighting on the circuit.
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Leon

How much of a draw is a free figure?  We've considered it for Battleground but by the time you've spent a couple of hundred £'s getting it sculpted and moulded, you've then got to supply 500-1000 of them for free, costing another £200-£300.  I'm not sure that much outlay brings in that many extra visitors?
www.pendraken.co.uk - Now home to over 7000 products, including 4500 items for 10mm wargaming, plus MDF bases, Battlescale buildings, I-94 decals, Litko Gaming Aids, Militia Miniatures, Raiden Miniatures 1/285th aircraft, Red Vectors MDF products, Vallejo paints and much, much more!

Nick the Lemming

It's always nice to get a freebie, but it's not something that would entice me to go to a con otherwise, and since most are 25mm, and often fantasy or sci-fi, they're of absolutely no use to me.

It's been a few years since I've been to a con, and a few more before that too since the last one, whereas I used to go to at least 3-4 a year if we go back 20-odd years. Too many are just variations on the same 25mm stalls and games that I have no interest in, so it just isn't worth it to me. If I was back in England, I'd go along to the Joy of 6 one, maybe one of the big London ones like Salute (though that's a very big maybe), and maybe Battleground or hammerhead (depending on where I lived).

It's interesting that Joy of 6 and Hammerhead both had all-day crowds and not just the wander in and out that's the sign of most cons. Hammerhead has an emphasis on participation games rather than demos and Joy of 6 is a niche market for dedicated 6mm wargamers. I think that sort of thing is the way forward.

petercooman

Quote from: Leon on 29 August 2017, 12:45:58 PM
How much of a draw is a free figure?  We've considered it for Battleground but by the time you've spent a couple of hundred £'s getting it sculpted and moulded, you've then got to supply 500-1000 of them for free, costing another £200-£300.  I'm not sure that much outlay brings in that many extra visitors?

For me it's not a draw per se, but if you get freebies when you go early, you might as well go early. Just a case of explaining why the mornings are packed and the noons less crowded.

Mind last year I got the free figure and a sprue of warlord marines. Since then I bought a marine army. The year before I got a plastic hanoverian sprue, and I picked up a hanoverian box and a command blister. So you can't say it doesn't work as a form of publicity, especially n a fickle wargaming butterfly like me.  ;D