possible ECW project using Baroque

[paulr]

Figure creep is indeed a possibility

I've put together a quick reference sheet that helps overcome some of the translation issues and also hopefully includes everything you actually need on a QRS. Our group plays about a dozen rule sets / variants so we need good QRS to help us remember each game

I'll have a look on the forum and I look forward to seeing some more varied regional lists. Are there any troop types that are completely missing on the main lists?

[fred.]

I've put together a quick reference sheet that helps overcome some of the translation issues and also hopefully includes everything you actually need on a QRS

If it would be possible to share this it would be great. I've had a couple of goes at getting my head around Baroque, but still don't feel confident - and as I'm one of the main rule people in our group, and one of the few interested in this period, if I don't get my head around them, then no one else will.                                                                                                                                                                                 

[paulr]

Hi Fred, I'm happy to share so long as the requestor has access to a copy of the rules

PM your email address and I'll send you a copy, feedback welcome

[paulr]

We still haven't had our test game of Baroque so this is still a tentative project. I have, however, been thinking about my possible order.

I'm looking to avoid the traditional stereotypes of Royalists in floppy hats and lobster potted Parliamentarians but am not sure what the current consensus is.

Am I correct in assuming both sides had cavalry in hats (EC9) and cavalry in helmet (EC10)?
Would units be likely to be mixed (EC9 & EC10)?

I assume that Pike were a mix of armoured (EC1) and unarmoured (EC2), in what proportions?
Did better units tend to have more armoured pike men or did the use of armour decline during the war?

For musketeers were a mix of caps and hats worn in the same unit or would it be one or the other, were hats most common?

And finally would dragoons wear a mix of morions and caps in the same unit?

[paulr]

These two codes sound similar, how do they differ?

EC28 Musketeers advancing hat - Pack contains 30 figures (2 poses)
EC37 Musketeers, advancing - Pack contains 30 figures (2 poses)

I couldn't find a picture of EC28

[Zippee]

These two codes sound similar, how do they differ?

EC28 Musketeers advancing hat - Pack contains 30 figures (2 poses)
EC37 Musketeers, advancing - Pack contains 30 figures (2 poses)

I couldn't find a picture of EC28

Not quite, EC28 is only the one pose and is firing not advancing

EC28
30x Musket A - Firing, hat (no rest)
see front rank here
T02 - Conyer Darcy's Foot - 02 by Zippee Jerred, on Flickr


EC37
15 x Musket A - Ready, hat (no rest) - rear rank above
15 x Musket B - Advancing, hat (no rest) - rear rank below

SK01 - Forlorn Hope - 02 by Zippee Jerred, on Flickr



did you mean EC36 ?
EC36
15 x Musket A - Marching, hat, rest
15 x Musket B - Marching, cap, rest

[paulr]

Thanks Zippee

I was confused by the label on the website. Leon might need to tweak the text for EC28

I'm interested in your and other thoughts on these questions

We still haven't had our test game of Baroque so this is still a tentative project. I have, however, been thinking about my possible order.

I'm looking to avoid the traditional stereotypes of Royalists in floppy hats and lobster potted Parliamentarians but am not sure what the current consensus is.

Am I correct in assuming both sides had cavalry in hats (EC9) and cavalry in helmet (EC10)?
Would units be likely to be mixed (EC9 & EC10)?

I assume that Pike were a mix of armoured (EC1) and unarmoured (EC2), in what proportions?
Did better units tend to have more armoured pike men or did the use of armour decline during the war?

For musketeers were a mix of caps and hats worn in the same unit or would it be one or the other, were hats most common?

And finally would dragoons wear a mix of morions and caps in the same unit?

[skywalker]

Having been to a couple of "education" days with regards to ECW both sides wore very similar uniforms and head gear. A few books I have read said in the main the opposing sides were identified by the following:  Parliamentarians having a white cloth or paper/parchment visible on them and the Royalist had red.
At the start of the war a lot of regiments were kitted out with uniforms but as the campaign season progressed the appearance became more rag tag as clothing wore out, new troops were drafted in etc.

[Zippee]

Thanks Zippee

I was confused by the label on the website. Leon might need to tweak the text for EC28

I'm interested in your and other thoughts on these questions

You're welcome

I'm no expert on the ECW but I did a deal of web "research" before starting my project - I wrote a long post on one of these Baroque topics here about my design goals in painting my stuff.
Here it is:

No not really, I deliberately wanted to emphasis the 'issued' nature of clothing, so kept to a strict uniform tone. I think far too often we see really rag-tag impressions of civil war uniforms. Whilst I think battalia would often be polyglot in that they'd be composed of several separately raised and equipped companies, I also think that the usual (after the first muster) would be for very uniform and generic cloth issue to produce a semblance of uniformity - particularly at a distance. Unless I'm mistaken this seems to be the modern impression been given by re-enactors of the period. I did survey a bunch of websites before starting, to get a flavour and understand the way clothing worked. For instance monotone jacket and breeches, seems almost universal and white / unbleached for hose very common.

Additionally I wanted to draw them spiritually closer to the second half of the century - people seem to have little issue with general uniformity post civil war. Hence the uniform black hats and white hose and buff belts, thematically that ties them in towards the later WSS uniforms. I wanted the 'look' to say "hey, we're trying to be modern here".

I also (as I usually do these days) kept to a limited palette across both armies - so all bread bags and belts are the same buff, all uniforms are one of the same 6 colours (with grey equalling the rest combined), all hats, hose, shoes, boots, armour are the same, all uniforms have white collars and cuffs, the sashes are uniform tawny or scarlet (yes I know Parliament should be varied but the single colour ties them together), all charges either terracotta or blue (not sure why blue, I've seen them painted that way and it stands out nicely which is good enough for me

But mostly I just wanted to emphasise the colour distinctions between otherwise identical blocks of troops - so from the other side of the table, you can point and say "the blue unit" whilst at the same time making them all look cohesive on the table.

I think that hat v lobster / cavalier v roundhead stereotype / myth has long since been debunked. As Skywalker says there doesn't seem to be much difference between the armies - well not after the first musters.

To your specific questions, the Pendraken musketeers are all in either hat or cap (excepting the dragoons in hard cap or morion) so are good for both sides. The armoured pikes are in helmet, the unarmoured in hat and cap - armoured pikes dwindled as the war progressed but I used them to distinguish the 'elite' P&M units required by the lists. But you could ignore the armoured pikes entirely and be perfectly authentic.

As to horse - hats, hats with metal skull caps beneath and open face  and tri-barred lobsters would all be around. The limits in a sense are the Pendraken poses - half the helmet wearers are wielding pistols and thus much more like RE than GA.

As to mixed gear in a unit - bearing in mind Baroque units are 'battalia' which themselves were either composites of multiple companies or sub sets of larger companies I think uniformity of gear would be as irregular as it always has been. However I preferred to maintain uniformity in my basing, partly because it feeds my OCD and partly because I think when representing 500 men trying to look like a unit with 20+ figures it works best if they are in the same kit and colours.

From what I saw in my 'research' the cap was by far and away the most common headgear for infantry - however hats just look so damn cool  

Dragoons - I was surprised that half the dragoons came in a morion, it seemed a tad fanciful to me but I used them anyway. I'd have thought hat or cut down 'roundabout' hat would be the most common. For uniformity of issue / wearing see above.

I posted this list of poses in a previous thread but it's pertinent here

EC05   Foot Command - 10 x Officer, helmet, breastplate, sword, 10 x Standard Bearer, helmet, 10 x Drummer, hat
EC01   Armoured Pike - 15 x Pike A, standing, helmet, 15 x Pike B, advancing, helmet,
EC02   Unarmoured Pike - 15 x Pike A - standing, hat, 15 x Pike B - advancing, cap
EC03   Musketeers, Cap - 15 x Musket A - firing, cap, rest, 15 x Musket B - loading, cap
EC14   Musketeers, Hat   - 15 x Musket A - firing, hat, rest, 15 x Musket B - loading, hat
EC28   Musketeers, Firing (no rest)   - 30x Musket A - Firing, hat (no rest)
EC36   Musketeer, Marching - 15 x Musket A - Marching, hat, rest, 15 x Musket B - Marching, cap, rest
EC37   Musketeer, Advancing - 15 x Musket A - Ready, hat (no rest), 15 x Musket B - Advancing, hat (no rest)
EC04   Dismounted Dragoons, Cap - 30 x Dragoon, cap, advancing
EC27   Dismounted Dragoons, Morion - 30 x Dragoon, morion, ready
EC08   Peasants - 15 x Peasant A - advancing with bill, 15 x Peasant B - advancing with fork
EC11   Cuirassier   - 1 x Officer, 1 x Standard Bearer, 1 x Trumpeter, 6 x Cuirassier, Sword, 6 x Cuirassier, Pistol
EC09   Cavalry, Hat, Sword -    1 x Officer, 1 x Standard Bearer, 1 x trumpeter, 6 x Horse A, hat, sword, 6 x Horse B, hat, sword
EC10   Cavalry, Helmet, Sword or Pistol - 1 x officer, 1 x Standard Bearer, 1 x trumpeter, 6 x Horse A, helmet, pistol, 6 x Horse B, helmet, sword
EC12   Mounted Dragoon - 1 x Officer, 1 x Standard Bearer, 1 x Drummer, 6 x Dragoon A, hat, carbine, 6 x Dragoon B, cap, carbine
EC06   Light Gun, Limber, Horses & Crew (2) - 2x Guns, 2x Limbers, 2x Horses, 2x Officers, 2x Ramrods, 2x Linstocks. 1x Drover
EC07   Medium Gun, Limber, Horses & Crew (2) - 2x Guns, 2x Limbers, 2x Horses, 2x Officers, 2x Ramrods, 2x Linstocks, 1x Drover

hope that helps

[d_Guy]

With all the usual caveats about my lack of deep knowledge (and the fact that I spend most of my time in the second and third Kingdoms) I offer the very general opinions:

We still haven’t had our test game of Baroque so this is still a tentative project. I have, however, been thinking about my possible order.

I’m looking to avoid the traditional stereotypes of Royalists in floppy hats and lobster potted Parliamentarians but am not sure what the current consensus is.

The typical, well kitted out horseman (the harquebusier) in all three kingdoms and both major sides had a lobster pot helm, buff coat, front and back plates. This turn out increased as the war progressed. Having heavier horses available was often the greater problem.

Am I correct in assuming both sides had cavalry in hats (EC9) and cavalry in helmet (EC10)?
Would units be likely to be mixed (EC9 & EC10)?

Yes and yes, particularly in early war.  Many of those in floppy hats wore a secrete, a iron or steel skull cap under. A broadsword stroke in the top of the head was a career ender.

I assume that Pike were a mix of armoured (EC1) and unarmoured (EC2), in what proportions?
Did better units tend to have more armoured pike men or did the use of armour decline during the war?

I don't know the proportions but at least the front rank being armored was typical. Much depended on pre-war kit with the Trained Bands in richer areas having better kit. The use of armor diminished during the course of the war (it did virtually nothing to protect against musket balls, so why carry all that extra weight). The tassets disappeared first, then the back plate. The helmet and front plate had greater utility so was probably worn by at least the front ranks through out the war (if available)

For musketeers were a mix of caps and hats worn in the same unit or would it be one or the other, were hats most common?

The brimmed hat was ubiquitous to the period so certainly the most available. While the Colonel might issue coat and breaches, headwear was individual. The brimmed hat is good for campaign (keeps the sun and weather off your face) BUT doing musket drill in one is cumbersome (probably why you see lots of turned up brims). The Monmouth and Montenaro where popular (since they did not get in the way and could be pulled over ears in cold weather).

Incidently, when a colonel bought cloth, I don't think he had uniformity in mind, just price. If his men where wearing ragged red and he got a good price on blue - instant "uniform" change. There was, IIRC, some sense that held that putting all the men in the same dress diminished their fighting spirt as individual warriors!

And finally would dragoons wear a mix of morions and caps in the same unit?

I don't know enough about dragoons. Would quess that they may have wanted some sort of head protection and may not have been limited to just morions.

I work from the principal that there were NO dress regulations which gives you a great deal of scope. Like most periods (even now) combat soldiers wear what best works for them (they just have a huge variety of issued - or captured - kit to work from).

Again these are my totally non-scholarly opinions. If I had it to do over I would probably use Zippie's approach because I think uniform colors and poses look extremely good in 10mm.

Oops! Just posted over Zippie - sorry!

[d_Guy]

Because of my own brand of OCD, for anyone interested in how arms and equipment evolved during the course of the Wars of the Three Kingdoms a useful read is:
Peter Edwards - The Arms Trade and the British Civil Wars, 1638-52.
Until reading this I had not realized how the size and number of horses available had such a major role in shaping the cavalry deployed in the various kingdoms..

[paulr]

Thanks Zippee & d_Guy very useful

Zippee, I had grabbed a copy of your very useful pose list hence my confusion on EC28

I am definitely inspired by your units however I'm thinking about mixing the poses a little while using uniform tones for jackets & breeches

I may also include a little more variety on bread bags, belts etc

Time to plan a detailed order

Any thoughts from others also welcome

[mollinary]

Hi Paul,

Your plans sound good. Leather and canvas comes in so many shades you should get a lot of variety into your units.  There are not many examples I can think of of complete 'suits' of clothes being issued to soldiers in the ECW - the only one I can recall was suits of clothes in blew and red to Regiments in Oxford (1643) which seems to have included breeches, coats and montero caps. Otherwise breeches are rarely mentioned as a uniform item (do I recall a New Model Army ordnance calling for them to be of 'graye or some other good colour'? ) Coats are by far the most common item issued, but there is no automatic assumption that Regiments kept the same colour from one issue to another, nor that new recruits would always receive coats of the same colour. To represent this I often include a couple of coats of different colours to break up the uniformity of my Regiments. Also worth recalling that the Royalists in particular found themselves with many small regiments as the war progressed, and often combined them in the battlefield to produce a single standard unit.  Good luck!

Mollinary

[paulr]

Thanks Mollinary

I spent a pleasant evening juggling numbers and now have an order that I am fairly happy with

Much to my surprise and, I suspect, Leon's relief it is almost all full packs
I need 2.5 packs of foot command and don't need limbers so will need special orders for the artillery

I haven't totalled the number of figures or the cost yet

[paulr]

I totalled up the number of figures, nearly 1,400 
and the cost 

I've revised the order, now less than 1,250 figures
and the cost is only 
A couple more special orders will be needed for command for the Horse

17	Pike & Musket
16	Horse (4 Gallopers, 6 Trotters, 6 Reiters)
4	Dragoons
4	Commanded Shot
2	Forlorn Hope
3	Artillery
8	Generals