Great Northern War - Help please

Started by Dannyboy, 06 May 2017, 04:22:24 PM

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Dannyboy

Hi I'm just thinking about looking into this as a new period, and know hardly anything about the period except a very basic outline, does anybody have recommendations with regards introductory reading around the subject, especially unit organisation and tactics?

What I'm also after is a recommendation on rules, Twighlight of the Sun King and Beneath the Lilly banners keep cropping up online, are these any good?, I would like to eventually fight largish battles hence choice of 10mm, would be looking initially at a Saxon/ Polish Commonwealth force.

Re basing is there any generic safe standard for basing? 60mm x 30mm seems popular for 6mm; should I be scaling up to 80mm x 40mm for 10mm figures?

Any insights, guidance or suggestions appreciated at this stage, thanks in advance.

Leman

Ga Pa, with a little Swedish o over the a, is reckoned to be a good period specific set.
The artist formerly known as Dour Puritan!

Hwiccee

Dannyboy,


On organisation and tactics I am struggling to think of an easily accessible introduction to the organisation and tactics of the GNW. There are some out there but they can be tricky to get. There are also some on the era generally that usually focus on Marlborough but they do cover a little of the specific GNW tactics. Also many nations in the GNW used the same tactics as those used in Marlborough's wars.

Briefly some of the infantry used the tactics used in the West and usually called Rank and Platoon firing performed by musket only units. The Russians used a variant of both of these but they generally kept some pikemen within the unit, about 1/5 to 1/8. The Swedish infantry used very aggressive charging tactics and in theory had 1/3 pikes.

The Saxons used Rank firing and also fairly often cheveaux de frise type defences. They were in battalions whose full strength was a bit over 600 men but they would of course be smaller than this by the time they got onto the battlefield. Regiments usually had 2 battalions but some only had 1 and of course they might only have 1 at a battle. There were 2 guard regiments, up to 8 old regiments, up to 11 new regiments and up to 2 foreign regiments. This is maximum and often there were less due to loses - for example the 8 old units dwindled to 2 over the war.

Not much is know about the Polish infantry as they rarely appeared. They probably used either rank firing or the Russian idea. Units varied in size but most Polish armeis had no infantyr at all and even when present there were only a few small units.

The Saxon cavalry used standard German style tactics of charging at the trot. The composition varies greatly but on average was about 50% Cuirassiers, 50% Dragoons. Regiments were generally 6 squadrons of around 150 men in theory, 900 or so men but more practically they were around 600 men. All GNW armies had a lot of cavalry and this could vary a lot  but as a rule of thumb it was 1 or 2 cavalry regiments to each infantry regiment (i.e. 2 battalions).

The Polish cavalry was the same as that used earlier on, so there were Winged Hussars, Pancerni, etc. The Winged Hussars used charging at the gallop tactics. The Pancerni used eastern style mixed tactics. The light horse were classic skirmishing cavalry. There were also dragoons and western style heavy cavalry. The dragoons were still largely mounted infantry and the western style heavy cavalry probably German style tactics. Unit sizes were all over the place and could be any size. 'Typical' unit sizes were say 400 to 600 men. Hussars were in mixed units of 50 to 100 hussars and the rest Pancerni.

The composition of Polish armies varied a lot but usually very few or no infantry or heavy western style cavalry. Usually at least 2 hussar & pancerni unit/pancerni only units for each dragoon or light horse unit.

The Saxon army was a decent army at the start of the war with many experienced/veteran units. Unfortunately as these were destroyed in battles the new units raised to replace them were not so good. The Poles were in theory also a decent army but they just didn't want to fight, they were more interested in fighting each other in what was effectively an ongoing civil war. This makes them difficult to get right in rules.

On rules I won't say much as I have written some rules for this war myself. Of the rules mentioned Beneath the Lily Banner and Ga Pa are aimed at games where you have say 10 to 20 units per player. We use the Polemos GNW set for this kind of game and all these sets are fairly tactical. Twilight of the Sun King is for large battles when you will use the whole army but are of course less tactical. A set of GNW (and Ottoman) scenarios for these rules are due out soon.

I don't think basing will be much of an issue with any of these rules as long as you are willing to be a little flexible. We don't play some of these rules but we use 60mm by 30mm bases with 10mm figures without any problems. But it would be no problem to use 80/40 or any other base size.

I hope this helps.

Aksu

Hullo,
Peter Englund's book Poltava, the battle that shook Europe is a very good read on the war http://amzn.eu/huZqccd if you want to brush up on your general knowledge on the conflict in a non textbook way.
Cheers,
Aksu

FierceKitty

Sure the Poles were still lancers?
I don't drink coffee to wake up. I wake up to drink coffee.


Hwiccee

07 May 2017, 09:39:55 AM #6 Last Edit: 07 May 2017, 09:44:07 AM by Hwiccee
Dannyboy: Whoops I noticed I forgot a brief overview of cavalry tactics. Again some used those used in the west - what I think of as German, Anglo Dutch and French styles. These varied but basically sacrificed some element of speed or order and so charged relatively ineffectively. They were broadly about as effective as each other. There was also skirmishing light horse and eastern style horse who mixed skirmishing/shooting/charging. The other main difference is the units that did what would become the standard tactics in the future - high speed and in good order attacks, these were the Swedes and some Poles.


Quote from: FierceKitty on 07 May 2017, 06:52:17 AM
Sure the Poles were still lancers?


I don't think anyone knows for sure but this would not change the basic tactics. The Hussars (and some possibly lance armed Pancerni from Lithuania) would still do the same galloping charge if they charged with swords. They would also have been equally as ineffective which ever they used.

Personally I think that the Hussars would have had their lances but probably more for show than actual use. As a general rule good troops in this era use swords and pistols and not lances.

Dannyboy

07 May 2017, 05:45:18 PM #7 Last Edit: 07 May 2017, 05:47:23 PM by Dannyboy
Many, many thanks for the superb and detailed replies guys, exactly the starting point I need with some great suggestions and information.

Hiwiccee - thanks for the excellent breakdown and detail of the Saxon and Polish forces, a great starting point and will be referring to it as I start my Poles. Love the 10mm cavalry figures and the force combines Clib's superb LoA sculpting so its a no brainer in terms of where to start. But the breakdown of the forces is terriffic and thanks for taking the time to go into such detail.

Glorfindel - Thanks for the links, as a newbie that provides enough to get me rolling with and get the momentum going with some Saxon foot and Polish Hussaria for starters.

FierceKitty - As a newbie I'm not sure but they are too good to miss, one of the attractions of the GNW for me as opposed to WSS is the merging of Eastern and Western dress and styles so yes there will have to be hussars :-)

Aksu - Looks like my first Amazon order and as you say a good all round primer.

Rules wise the juries out but hearing a lot of good things re "Lilly Banners" and "Go Pa", both seem to work well with larger engagements which is what I'd ultimately like to aim for, so will probably be one or both of these. Basing, 2 x (60mm x 30mm) seems to be the general consensus. I'll be doing one 60mm x 30 base with the two "sleeves" of shot on (30x30 mm) bases to go alongside. If i'm going wrong anywhere here please don't hesitate to say so. Will hopefully post pics as this unfolds.

Also a big thanks to the guys doing the Kalisz 1706 game at Salute if they see this by chance for the inspiration......

Cheers guys

Hwiccee

Quote from: Dannyboy on 07 May 2017, 05:45:18 PM
Many, many thanks for the superb and detailed replies guys, exactly the starting point I need with some great suggestions and information.

Hwiccee - thanks for the excellent breakdown and detail of the Saxon and Polish forces, a great starting point and will be referring to it as I start my Poles. Love the 10mm cavalry figures and the force combines Clib's superb LoA sculpting so its a no brainer in terms of where to start. But the breakdown of the forces is terriffic and thanks for taking the time to go into such detail.

No problem and please ask again if you need more details.


Quote
Also a big thanks to the guys doing the Kalisz 1706 game at Salute if they see this by chance for the inspiration......

I am glad you enjoyed the Kalisz game. Here are some of another game we did a few years ago featuring Saxons and Poles - http://www.wfgamers.org.uk/resources/images/Gallery/GNW/KliszowSheffield.htm. We also did Fraustadt but I can't remember where we put these pictures :(

We are working on Lesnaya 1708 for the next demo game.

I am afraid I can claim no credit for these as they were all painted by my friend. As mentioned previously I have the same armies in 10mm (nowhere near as nicely painted) and use the same basing with with fewer figures on.


Glorfindel

One final thought.   You might want to track down three recent issues of
Wargames Illustrated (349 - 351) as these include a fantastic overview of
the GNW by Barry Hilton.


Phil

toxicpixie

I think you might want to take a punt on "Twilight of the sun king" as well - surprised Hwicce didn't mention it more but it's a cracking set of rules!
I provide a cheap, quick painting service to get you table top quality figures ready to roll - www.facebook.com/jtppainting

profjohn

A great period. The Swedish army of that time has to be just about the most aggressive and innovative ever. I've found that using Black Powder and getting the command values set right I've had pretty accurate results when using the tactics of the time. My all cavalry Polish army, for example, tends to break and leave the table en masse (as they did) while the Saxons are a stalwart bunch. There's a story about one battle - forget which - where a Russian unit turned their coats to show the red linings so the Swedes might think they were Saxons and leave them alone.

Hwiccee

Yes certainly a great war to fight but unfortunately one that is difficult to get right.

The problem with the Poles (and Lithuanians) is to do with politics and some related problems, like a lack of infantry. Basically they are more concerned with fighting the ongoing civil war in Poland/Lithuania than with helping any of the various Swedish/Saxon/Russian invaders gain control of their country. This leads to what happened at the most well known battle featuring the Poles (Kliszow 1702) which is the basis for the general view of them.

The Poles only turned up to the battle because everyone expected the Saxons to win, which would have been bad news for the Poles politically, and so they were in a lose/lose situation as a victory by either side was bad for them. They then did a number of ferocious attacks but without infantry support, a crucial aspect of their tactics, they couldn't achieve anything. So having done what they considered enough they decided to withdraw from the battle, much to the surprise of both the Saxons and Swedes. They were not 'broken' but retreated in good order with so confused Swedes following at a respectable distance in case they changed their minds.

Similarly I am afraid the 'turning their coats' idea is also a myth - it was Fraustadt 1706 by the way. Even if the Russians did this it would not 'disguise' them. The Russians had pikes and the Saxons didn't, their flags were completely different, not all of them had red linings and many had uniforms different to the Saxons.

Grenadier

If you like to spend money, you might want to also pick up the two volume set, "Great Northern War Compendium", THGC Publishing, which came out a couple of years back.  It is a decent overview of the conflict and includes lots of pictures, maps and art to get one inspired.  Sort of a picture book/encyclopedia. Then, if you are really serious, there are Hogland's books...