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Poll
Question: Which option would you prefer to fix the issues?  (Voting closed: 08 May 2017, 09:10:41 PM)
Option 1 - Errata - 9 (7.8%)
Option 2 - New PDF Army Lists - 43 (37.4%)
Option 3 - New Printed Army Lists - 5 (4.3%)
Option 4 - Full Reprint - 58 (50.4%)
Total Voters: 115

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Author Topic: Important Announcement about BKC-III - Please Read  (Read 34101 times)
toxicpixie
Major General
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« Reply #105 on: 06 May 2017, 09:50:56 AM »

Just a minor note, but blind testers who have NOT played BKC (or whatever the game may be) before are vital. Only they will catch the assumptions that experienced players breeze through but first timers stumble into and fall.

Also, this is not "my BKC" revision - it's not my house rules and assumptions, but a new edition for everyone including brand new players AND grognards.

It takes both... same with in depth subject knowledge - the specialist is too narrow, and as BKC is very top down you need someone to sanity check that the fiddly crunchy simulationist bits work in context for the uninitiated and the curious but novice.
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Leon
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« Reply #106 on: 06 May 2017, 03:07:44 PM »

Just as a note on the playtesters, the author had a group of people at his end and then we sent the rules off to a further/wider group of people at our side.  Our group was a wide mix of ex-BKC players, current BKC players, non-BKC players and also rules authors of established sets already on the market.  There was a variety of feedback that came back on all sorts of areas and it was all sent on to the author to look at and amend where he felt necessary.  We then had a final face-to-face meeting before we went to print to iron out any outstanding feedback issues and points raised.  As I've said before, I didn't see any problems during this process, our feedback group were all helpful and constructive people and we went to print confident that we'd done everything we needed to do. 

Obviously it hasn't worked out that way, but any blame for that lies with us as the publishers, not with people who gave up their free time to help us out.
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williamb
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« Reply #107 on: 06 May 2017, 03:22:02 PM »

Leon, you are correct in that you do need to have those who have never seen the rules try them at some point.   I have seen the situation where those who have been involved from the start being used to the rules and missing flaws.
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Ithoriel
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« Reply #108 on: 06 May 2017, 03:30:57 PM »

Now that I've calmed down a little, I think what's frustrated me most with BKCIII is that it's done reasonably well with the difficult bits and then fallen down completely on what should have been the easy bits.

I like the bulk of the recce changes (though abilities you can't get close enough to the enemies to trigger is a slight oops!).

I like the idea of special abilities rather than notes, though some seem a little odd to me and several seem to be being applied rather too liberally.

The Close Assault rules seem better drafted than before.

But then artillery seems to have become equipped self-targeting MIRV rounds and is controlled by anyone with a walkie-talkie (OK, OK slight exaggeration ... but not much!)

The army lists are a nightmare.

However, between BKCII and BKCIII there is clearly a wonderful set of rules struggling to get out. I'm up for assisting in getting the butterfly out of it's cocoon, if I can. Even if that does consist of shutting up, sitting down and waiting patiently! Smiley
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T-Square
Playtester
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« Reply #109 on: 06 May 2017, 03:34:31 PM »

First props to Pendraken for getting out front and accepting responsibility.  This indicates the team is willing to make things right.  Piling on does not help fix the issues.

Having trouble shot a few major projects here are some recommendations on how to get it done. 

1.  Put out errata for the rules to allow wide play testing by all interested parties.  They can provide feedback on the forums.  Provide updated errata regularly to ensure you get feedback during the entire process.
2.  Have a trusted team of play testers provide intimate feedback to the people rewriting the rules.  (This includes people totally unfamiliar with the rules.). These need to be individuals who won't pull punches and you will listen to without rancor entering the equation.  (The authors may hear some things they don't want to hear.)
3.  For army lists right now use BKC2 lists.  Provide errata for command units to use with those lists.  (This should make an initial errata much easier.)
4.  Have a separate team work on the Army lists for future publication.  (As an errata PDF or other.) (play test, play test, play test)
5.  Once you are satisfied with the results, publish BKC 3.1

Hope this helps,

Keep smiling

I've got a bunch of guys coming over Tuesday with the new rules to have a go.  We play BKC2 and FWC regularly.

(First post here.  I've got a few over on the BKC/CWC/FWC forums.)

« Last Edit: 06 May 2017, 03:38:48 PM by T-Square » Logged
ianrs54
Playtester
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« Reply #110 on: 06 May 2017, 03:54:38 PM »

Its even more insane here - Hi T_square.
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baggagetrain
Cadet

Posts: 7


« Reply #111 on: 06 May 2017, 06:27:48 PM »

Hi again all,
Last Thursday we again tried BKCIII, to give them a fair chance since being told that we could opportunity fire in command moves. So, with prearranging the we decided to do Scenario 9.
Well first off, we had to decide the size of each force as there is nothing in the Scenario other than the attacker can have 4 off table support units for free if the defender opts for any defensive terrain, then how many turns there are and the weather options in the end we decided that the attacker would have overwhelming points odds of 2-1 in that the Germans had 2000pts and the British 4000pts. We play at a lower scale in that one infantry stand = 1 section (10men) and 1 AFV or Gun = 1 AFV or gun.

The Germans set up in concealed positions and with the British deploying 20cm in. the first Three moves went okay with the German bringing in mortar fire on one section of infantry and inflicted 2 hits he then tried to fire again but blundered and the whole command had to fall back from their positions in a village that they occupied.  The start of the third move and the Germans decided to open up with opportunity fire on one of the Churchill's (Good Armour) advancing and showed its flank to the concealed Panther (Tank Buster) and dished out 2 hits and the Panther then placed on the table, the rest of the British forces moved up. Two tank troops (two Cromwell’s and one firefly in each Troop) moved up and then opened fire on the now seen Panther, no more Panther! The Germans did not do any more opportunity fire. In the Germans third move he placed one more Panther and a Tiger first firing with the Panther he hit one of the Cromwell’s giving it 3 hits and suppressed it, the British then decided to use opportunity fire with the said two troops minus one Cromwell and a Churchill 95 two Cromwell’s one firefly and the Churchill were under half range, another dead Panther. The Tiger then fired on another Churchill and dished out 2 hits but was unable to suppress it. So, the Churchill then opened up under opportunity fire with 3 25pdr guns brought in by an FO with line of sight of the Tiger gave it 2 hits and suppressed it. This is the point that we stopped, the German player not looking too happy, though I do not know the makeup of his forces I don’t think he had much left. The game felt clunky and did not seem to flow.

First off is, what is the point of Tank Buster? Give them an extra dice or a lower to hit number or even re-roll missed hits. the stats should be where this shown not an extra rule

Good Armour? Give them better armour save rolls or again re-roll unsaved hits again the stats should be where this shown not an extra rule

Vulnerable? This makes no sense at all APC classed as this, really? APC’s were and are designed to fight against small arms fire, okay open topped APC’s should be Vulnerable to mortar and indirect artillery fire but not to small arms, a rethink is needed on this one.

Sighting once the unit is on the table and the enemy has LOS it can be seen, even when it is cammed up! When I was in the army we learnt how to Camouflage, not just one day or even one week a year, it was constant and major part of the job and believe it or not the Germans late in WWII were brilliant at this, as too were the Japanese, but to fire one shot and then to be seen by all troops with LOS is a tad unlikely and this needs to be looked at. Personally, I think there should be a roll for sighting for anything that moves or fires over 15cm away. This can be as simple as rolling 1D6 and if in the open seen on a 3,4,5 or 6 in light cover 5 or 6 in hard cover seen on a 6 if the stand is dug in add +1 to this, if in hard cover and dug in reroll any 6 and must then get 4,5 or 6 to be seen, just a simple addition.

I had hoped that Artillery would have been sorted out in BKCIII but it is still the same only some stats have changed a bit, I do not like that if the templet lands on 10 stands, just for instance Navel guns’ fire, it gets 120 rolls of the dice and if only one stand then 12 dice. I have never agreed with this even under BKCII. I think one way would be that the guns roll no more dice than their stats give so if they have 12 then they can only roll 12 dice but the firer should have the option to say where his dice will hit either one stand or all stands so if the templet covers 6 stands he can choose either one stand to take all 12 hits or all stands to take 2 hits each.

I am sorry Leon but I have voted for option 4, not just for the issues that we have seen, but the layout of some parts of the rules are just completely mind boggling and just doing an errata will take up so much time and to have cross outs and have hand written blocks all over the book is not what I really want so early on with rules. If you want a completely Unbiased play testing group for any revised set please let me know. 
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ronan
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« Reply #112 on: 06 May 2017, 06:52:01 PM »

I agree with some points, BUT on others, I feel you didn't like BKCII  Undecided .
I don't think the game should change that much ( new rules for visibility ?...   Or the artillery fire.) (1)

 I wrote on the forum that I was not very happy with some parts in the new rules, But we can't blame everything  Wink


(1) may be it's the scale, that's wrong for you ?
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baggagetrain
Cadet

Posts: 7


« Reply #113 on: 06 May 2017, 07:11:24 PM »

nope nothing wrong with the scale or BKII, I enjoy using them both. so much so I have not used any other WWII rules since BKC came out. I find them very easy to use and get a very good outcome in most of the games I have played, though there are just a few things I find that don't represent what I have read, seen or heard but then again no set of rules will ever represent warfare as it is and all we can hope for is a close proximity. by the way i was not the German player in our last game, and I found it immensely unfair for him.
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Dr Dave
Major
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« Reply #114 on: 06 May 2017, 07:24:32 PM »

"I had hoped that Artillery would have been sorted out in BKCIII but it is still the same only some stats have changed a bit, I do not like that if the templet lands on 10 stands, just for instance Navel guns’ fire, it gets 120 rolls of the dice and if only one stand then 12 dice. I have never agreed with this even under BKCII. I think one way would be that the guns roll no more dice than their stats give so if they have 12 then they can only roll 12 dice but the firer should have the option to say where his dice will hit either one stand or all stands so if the templet covers 6 stands he can choose either one stand to take all 12 hits or all stands to take 2 hits each."

But that's exactly how artillery works. It's an area weapon. If you're in the area then you're potentially affected. What you suggesting would mean that having fewer units - so you're more spread out - would make the off table guns more effective? Arty is now much much better in bkc3 anyway. BUT, we're all discussing what in effect non rules. They're all going back for a swapsey when the new version comes out. It will be like they never existed.
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“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
And the infantry are the bailiff’s men”
baggagetrain
Cadet

Posts: 7


« Reply #115 on: 06 May 2017, 08:08:58 PM »

yes I agree it is an area weapon, and there are two types of firing, converged where all the rounds land in the same place or within a meter or two and a battery spread where the rounds land as the battery is laid out which normally be in a zigzag pattern with gun having a set distance between each other this would also depend on the calibre of the guns, light guns would be about 4 meter frontage so when the shells landed with an 8 gun battery it would cover an area roughly  32 meters by 12 meters and the 8 rounds will land in this area. so if you have a section in the first 12 meters not all the rounds will hit them but converge fire they would, and that would all depend on the OP and the fire mission he requests, and how many rounds he wants. so if he asks for 5 rounds fire for affect, this would be a standard battery spread with 40 rounds hitting the ground. so how do you purpose it is represented in a set of rules?
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toxicpixie
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Posts: 4277



« Reply #116 on: 06 May 2017, 08:09:16 PM »

What dr Dave said on arty effects. You don't want to get caught clustered, it's an FAOs dream. What was Pattons comment in Tunisia on the panzer grenadiera making even  an armoured assault in close formation? "Murdering good infantry", iirc.

Discussion does seem to be veering from actual rules/lists issues (even if historical based than crunchy how Ro's) and
More into "I don't like it" territory.

From what I read there's definitely a good chassis there to get on the road once the extraneous body work issues are looked at Smiley
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baggagetrain
Cadet

Posts: 7


« Reply #117 on: 06 May 2017, 11:08:45 PM »

They're all going back for a swapsey when the new version comes out. It will be like they never existed.
I think a swapsey as you say, is a little unfair to Leon, he has pulled these at great cost to Pendraken. If they are to be revised and then put out in the same quality as these then I have no problems with a trade in offer, may be like I give back my set of BKCIII and Ł10 and get the new revamped set. this way Pendraken will not be completely out pocket as much as just doing a straight swap.   
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williamb
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« Reply #118 on: 06 May 2017, 11:20:22 PM »

I got the pre-order discount and would be willing to pay the difference.   Most of what is in there is direct copy from BKC2.   I did see that most of the optional rules from page 132 did not make it.
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #119 on: 07 May 2017, 11:40:20 AM »

I think a swapsey as you say, is a little unfair to Leon, he has pulled these at great cost to Pendraken. If they are to be revised and then put out in the same quality as these then I have no problems with a trade in offer, may be like I give back my set of BKCIII and Ł10 and get the new revamped set. this way Pendraken will not be completely out pocket as much as just doing a straight swap.   

I'm quoting Leon. I'd just like a copy of something that improved on bkc2.
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“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
And the infantry are the bailiff’s men”
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