Master list for the new Korean War range - Input required!

Started by Leon, 25 October 2016, 09:44:17 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Which of these ranges would you be most likely to buy first?

American - Early war kit
11 (20.4%)
American - Later war kit
18 (33.3%)
British - Tropical kit
7 (13%)
British - Commandos
11 (20.4%)
British - Later war kit
21 (38.9%)
North Korean
32 (59.3%)
South Korean
12 (22.2%)
Chinese - Summer kit
12 (22.2%)
Chinese - Winter kit
25 (46.3%)

Total Members Voted: 54

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

No FRiday, after the modern infantry - Duck Knights and Wombels with AK's. STOP WASTING TIME WITH THE CHOCLATRE BARS....


IanS
FOG IN CHANNEL - EUROPE CUT OFF
Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
Muppet of the year 2019, 2020 and 2021

Raider4

Quote from: fsn on 26 October 2016, 08:06:03 AM
As for vehicles, I don't think there is a massive amount needed.

M75 and perhaps Oxford carrier. These, though are just icing. The bulk of Korean War vehicles are already covered or in the pipleine.

Unless you're of the "But on that particular Sunday there were 3 Mk17's with the square hatches deployed on a parade ground in Seoul which could possibly have got dirty if there had been a massive Communist attack a la Tet Offensive" brigade.


I'd like an M4A3E8 with 76mm turret, and an M40 155mm howitzer please. Don't think these are currently in the range?

Cheers, Martyn
--

Leon

Quote from: fsn on 26 October 2016, 07:44:02 AM
Done it again when I'm sat at a desk and all three counted.

But I wanted at least 4!  :'( :'(

I expected people might want more...  3 should be enough for now, it'll give us a good idea of which ranges come first.

Quote from: Raider4 on 26 October 2016, 05:09:31 PM
I'd like an M4A3E8 with 76mm turret, and an M40 155mm howitzer please. Don't think these are currently in the range?

I'll have a check on those, as I know the Easy 8 is on the list to be done already so it shouldn't be too hard to do the GMC conversion on it.

8)
www.pendraken.co.uk - Now home to over 7000 products, including 4500 items for 10mm wargaming, plus MDF bases, Battlescale buildings, I-94 decals, Litko Gaming Aids, Militia Miniatures, Raiden Miniatures 1/285th aircraft, Red Vectors MDF products, Vallejo paints and much, much more!

fsn

Right! Right! Aside from the M75. the Oxford Carrier, the M4A3E8K2 and the M40, what has Pendraken never done for us?

I thought the E8 was on the list.

Lord Oik of Runcorn (You may refer to me as Milord Oik)

Oik of the Year 2013, 2014; Prize for originality and 'having a go, bless him', 2015
3 votes in the 2016 Painting Competition!; 2017-2019 The Wilderness years
Oik of the Year 2020; 7 votes in the 2021 Painting Competition
11 votes in the 2022 Painting Competition (Double figures!)
2023 - the year of Gerald:
2024 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

Matt J

Is the M50 (already done - MDV27) the same hull as the easy 8?
2012 Painting Competition - Winner!
2014 Painting Competition - 3 x Winner!
2014 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!
2015 Painting Competition - 2 x Winner!
Beep

Leon

Quote from: Matt J on 26 October 2016, 07:18:52 PM
Is the M50 (already done - MDV27) the same hull as the easy 8?

Should be, it's the welded hull with the same suspension setup, but I get a bit lost with all the Sherman variants, so I'll check on Dave where we are with it.
www.pendraken.co.uk - Now home to over 7000 products, including 4500 items for 10mm wargaming, plus MDF bases, Battlescale buildings, I-94 decals, Litko Gaming Aids, Militia Miniatures, Raiden Miniatures 1/285th aircraft, Red Vectors MDF products, Vallejo paints and much, much more!

fsn

Please, please, please could we use some common sense and ensure that the first ranges are compatible?

For example, if one is the Winter clad Chinese, could they not be paired with South Koreans in t-shirts and flip-flops?  

I know this won't happen, but I've been looking at the voting.

Also please more Burp guns!



Australians


???
Lord Oik of Runcorn (You may refer to me as Milord Oik)

Oik of the Year 2013, 2014; Prize for originality and 'having a go, bless him', 2015
3 votes in the 2016 Painting Competition!; 2017-2019 The Wilderness years
Oik of the Year 2020; 7 votes in the 2021 Painting Competition
11 votes in the 2022 Painting Competition (Double figures!)
2023 - the year of Gerald:
2024 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

Matt J

2012 Painting Competition - Winner!
2014 Painting Competition - 3 x Winner!
2014 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!
2015 Painting Competition - 2 x Winner!
Beep

nikharwood


Sunray

Quote from: fsn on 26 October 2016, 09:17:19 PM
Please, please, please could we use some common sense and ensure that the first ranges are compatible?

For example, if one is the Winter clad Chinese, could they not be paired with South Koreans in t-shirts and flip-flops?  

I know this won't happen, but I've been looking at the voting.


Too early in the preferendum to call what trends emerging - although I did think the early war Brits would lose out in popularity to the 29th Brigade in their smocks and more modern appearance.    Keep voting Commandos ! Only elite on the table with a 5/30. (1)

I have one hypothesis.  The AFVs - particularly the Centurion - have been out there for a long time.  Many gamers have painted up and based the
tanks .....and waited for the figures.  Are these gamers motivated by figures to compliment the tanks they  already possess ?  The sad news is the CPLA had no armour at the time of their 1950 offensive.  It will be little Chinese men against machines.

Another theory -  The Korean war was popular comic culture in USA. In the 1960s there was a plethora of war comics . I have read a PhD on Charlton and Marvel comics and their treatment of Korea.   Would there be a market for the American figures Stateside ?  The strong $ would make Pendraken very attractive, even with a retailer's margin.

(1) CWC rules for Korea has got a lot of the troop rankings and morale value simply wrong.  I have revised rules for my own gaming.

pierre the shy

Quote from: Sunray on 26 October 2016, 11:48:23 PM

I have one hypothesis.  The AFVs - particularly the Centurion - have been out there for a long time.  Many gamers have painted up and based the tanks .....and waited for the figures.  Are these gamers motivated by figures to compliment the tanks they  already possess ?  The sad news is the CPLA had no armour at the time of their 1950 offensive. 

Another theory -  The Korean war was popular comic culture in USA. In the 1960s there was a plethora of war comics . I have read a PhD on Charlton and Marvel comics and their treatment of Korea.   Would there be a market for the American figures Stateside ?  The strong $ would make Pendraken very attractive, even with a retailer's margin.

No Armour? borrow someone elses !  ;)  I've seen at least one picture of a Cromwell/Centaur? (sorry my post war British tank knowledge is limited :) ) that was captured by the Chinese.

Also need to remember that Korea was mainly an infantry war so there were only limited amounts of tanks around....its not the Eastern Front in WW2......there were no entire armoured divisions deployed, the biggest armoured unit used, at least on the UN side, was US Battalion/British Reigment level.

Quite interested in a Korean war force myself if one can find the right rules and game scale (platoon/company/battalion/brigade level) that the other people that I game with feel comfortable with.  Have to agree with Sunjester that its good that PM are prepared to commit to this era, certainly opens up a whole raft of future gaming opportunities once the range is available 8)

 
Though much is taken, much abides; and though
we are not now that strength which in old days
moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are.

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

A Cromwell Pierre, they were in the Recce Troop, I assume 11 like the Stuarts, but don't know for certain. It weren't proof from 84mm Sabot.

On Shermans - I think all the ones in Korea were welded, not cast. Should be M4A3E8/76(W), although you would need to do a 105 turret with coaxial flamethrower for the USMC.

IanS
FOG IN CHANNEL - EUROPE CUT OFF
Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
Muppet of the year 2019, 2020 and 2021

Sunray

Quote from: pierre the shy on 27 October 2016, 04:50:24 AM
No Armour? borrow someone elses !  ;)  I've seen at least one picture of a Cromwell/Centaur? (sorry my post war British tank knowledge is limited :) ) that was captured by the Chinese.

Also need to remember that Korea was mainly an infantry war so there were only limited amounts of tanks around....its not the Eastern Front in WW2......there were no entire armoured divisions deployed, the biggest armoured unit used, at least on the UN side, was US Battalion/British Reigment level.

Quite interested in a Korean war force myself if one can find the right rules and game scale (platoon/company/battalion/brigade level) that the other people that I game with feel comfortable with.  Have to agree with Sunjester that its good that PM are prepared to commit to this era, certainly opens up a whole raft of future gaming opportunities once the range is available 8)


Your borrowed Cromwell(s) - at least 12 captured by Chinese - relates to the Happy Valley battle of early 1951.   UN Intel reports that the Chinese passed them to the KPA. At least one used in defence of Inchon.  The explanation is that the Chinese were very much a peasant army.  Not a lot of trained tank crew- where as the Cromwell and the T-34 both descend from the Christie, so KPA would have some knowledge of how to use this tank.  The Chinese at this stage of the war simply did not use armour. This has to be reflected in the rules.  

You have to be careful in describing Korea as an infantry war.  It is perhaps useful to break the war into stages.  First stage, the KPA assault with 160 T-34s , and the retreat to the Pusan perimeter.  UN quickly establish air superiority, but  weak on the ground.  However  by 7 August 1950 the US have 400 medium tanks in the Pusan pocket (M4A3, M26, M46) and a superiority of 4to 1 when you factor in Royal Irish Centurions,  Cromwells , Lord Strathcona's Horse (M10s) and Filipin Chaffes.  

In terms of tank v tank, you have 9th July 1951 at Chonui.  M24 v T.34
Then 31 July at Chinjuon M26 v T-34 (the M26 had to be abandoned as a bridge was blown too early, no report of enemy recovering and using them.  Later reports of M4A3s engaging T.34s on 2 Aug and 'holding their own;

Naktong Bulge (early August) M26s in hull down positions break up T.34 attacks  - also benefit from CAS. (close air support).  Its also a good early example of in depth defence that would shape later NATO tactics

Then comes Inchon. The US Marines are fighting a slick combined arms battle with 50 T-34s being destroyed by M26s plus Corsair CAS

In the break out from Pusan, we have the largest tank engagement of the war.   A US intel report (now declassified Fort Lauderdale online ) counts a total of 239 destroyed or abandoned T.34 and 74 SU76 against 60 US Tanks.  The report gives the following detail of what was found below the 38th :

1.  39 by tank fire (16%)
2.  13 by rocket launchers (5%)
3.  102 by air strikes  (43%)
4   60 by napalm  (25%)

These stats were to shape NATO tactics in dealing with waves of T-34s, T-54s, and T-55s for many years to come!

Hope this is useful and stimulates an interest in gaming the Korean war.

Cheers

James
 


pierre the shy

Thanks for the details Sunray and Ian S....I defer to your knowledge on such matters.

Didn't know the UN had so much armour in Pusan that quickly.

Got a bit of time to do some research before the range comes out  ;)

Cheers
Peter
Though much is taken, much abides; and though
we are not now that strength which in old days
moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are.

Sunray

Quote from: pierre the shy on 27 October 2016, 09:26:18 AM
Thanks for the details Sunray and Ian S....I defer to your knowledge on such matters.

Didn't know the UN had so much armour in Pusan that quickly.

Got a bit of time to do some research before the range comes out  ;)

Cheers
Peter

Peter, feel free to discuss and challenge.  Its a learning curve for all of us.  I am only wising up to then fact that US commanders denigrated the morale and combat readiness of their own men in engagements like Task Force Smith.  The revision (I have a link on the rumour thread) now shows they were covering their naivety in asking infantry to stop tanks with inferior and u/s equipment. No army brass likes to admit a balls up. The American military underestimated that the Soviets could train and arm a Third World nation to such efficiency.

Secondly please don't give Techno excuses !  I can just hear Phil "They have to do more research before I release my precious sculpts to Leon" .

I reckon I am getting a handle on Phase I of the war. (the 1950 Communist offensive, the Inchon landing and the push up from Pusan into North Korea )
I still need to learn a lot about Phase ii (the Chinese counter attack and how it petered out due to the very primitive Chinese approach to logistics. A problem which was solved in Vietnam by General Gap's use of 1000's of porters) And the Meatgrinder which offers nothing to game .  There is a Dunkirk style evacuation at Hungham which I need to study.
Phase III - the static dug in war around the 38th does not seem to offer much either.   But no doubt a fellow forum member will challenge that!     

I will probably end up gaming Korea like I did WW1 - keep to that early period of fluid movement and - in the Korean case, the improved Battle Field Management (the big improvement in comms over WW2) that allows Combined Arms to be taken to a new challenging level.  I have just ordered a few 1/144 F4U on ebay!