Bendy and broken pikes

[Zippee]

My vote goes for open handed 

I mean adding the pike is a whole lot easier than painting or basing them (if they are cats open handed - drilling them out is a PITA) don't listen to the lazy whingers, lead by example 

[Ithoriel]

As a "lazy whinger" I loathe having to fit pikes and spears to open hands, life's too short.

If you've time to do that, you've time to remove cast ones and replace them.

[doctorphalanx]

Making pikes with shaped ends would require some effort but sticking a pike in place is pretty minimal in comparison to all the effort of de-flashing, painting and basing, not to mention a lifetime of straightening and repair when the pikes go wonky or break. Plain wire and pins are not ideal, but I would prefer them to bent/broken cast ones. North Star do some good wire spears for larger scale figures. I don't know if any of these are thin enough for 10mm.

Anyway, if Pendraken provided both options we wouldn't be having this debate, and the relative sales would show what the real balance of consumer demand was...

[fred.]

The North Star ones are very thin and very long, and sharp!

While the thickness of the shaft might work for 10mm the head is probably too big.

[doctorphalanx]

I think the NS head designs vary. Some seem to be more leaf-shaped.

[d_Guy]

As I see it the biggest problem with having both an open-hand and cast-on pike variant is the production expense. I don't know enough about the moulding technology but it seems like you would either have to make two separate moulds or a single one with arms separate (so you could go either way - which would be perry cool). In either case probably a whole new set of moulds to make. Perhaps the cost is trivial but I doubt it -  only Pendraken can answer that.

If you've time to do that, you've time to remove cast ones and replace them.

I totally agree with this. I'm not very skilled at doing this stuff but I do try switching heads (and arms) and adding green stuff for various reasons. The whole issue is how much time you want to spend on anyone thing. It honestly seems like cutting off the existing pike, drilling or notching the hand then adding the new wire pike would not be that difficult.

The Doctor points out what I think is the greater problem - what to use for the new, thinner pike. In 25mm I used brass rod with leaf points braised on (I think from Redoubt). These were just excellent, looked fantastic, and were sharper than all get out. I haven't found an equivalent in 10mm. Don't like rod or wire if no pike head of some sort is not put in place.

Assuming you use a reasonable number of pikemen on your base the impression of a pike block will be maintained if you use shorter pikes.

I agree! I use six figures on a 1" square base which packs them in pretty good. A Teracio has 4 of this in a 2" square which, to me at least, is impressive.

As a recent convert to 10mm I'm sold on the scale, sorry if I got a little to "missionary" on this.

[Womble67]

As Phil has said, this is one of those debates that comes up regularly and for every person who wants them open-handed there's an equal number who hate the idea of having to glue pikes onto every figure.  The only real solution is to offer both types... 

Any chance of this happening if yes what sort of time  scale till ready to buy

Take care

Andy

[doctorphalanx]

Some pike heads were little more than spikes. http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=24930

If you Google pikes and look at groups of re-enactors, you can hardly see the pike heads.

Translate that to 10mm and arms length and I would think that a pin with a dab of silver was a quite adequate representation, and possibly a more accurate representation than an 'over-modelled' cast pike head.

[doctorphalanx]

Here's Holbein's famous drawing of Landsknecht pikemen:

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bad-war.jpg#/media/File%3ABattle_Scene%2C_after_Hans_Holbein_the_Younger.jpg

More evidence of pikes just looking like long pointy things.

[d_Guy]

Those are very good points (pun intended), Doctor, particularly for the bodkin?- like point. In 10mm particularly true. And yes, "over-modeled" may be worse than not modeled at all. Diamond and leaf points (I think, but can't now source) were a bit more common in the Low Countries and the British Isles and I just happen to like them, over modeled or not. Anyway you seem very knowledgeable and I hope you find a way into doing TWY in 10mm! I would continue to enjoy your comments.

[fred.]

I've actually found my pack of NS metal pikes now - and they have quite a fine head. Compared with the pike head on EC1 its fractionally taller, but not by very much at all.

The shafts look about the thickness of a cast on Pendraken lance shaft on WWI british cavalry, perhaps a touch thicker than the pike on EC1. So the thickness is certainly right

The biggest problem is that they are 100mm long, so you will get a lot of extra shaft, per head!!

[Zippee]

I totally agree with this. I'm not very skilled at doing this stuff but I do try switching heads (and arms) and adding green stuff for various reasons. The whole issue is how much time you want to spend on anyone thing. It honestly seems like cutting off the existing pike, drilling or notching the hand then adding the new wire pike would not be that difficult.

I don't! The difference in time and effort is vast. Adding a seperate pike is quick and simple, removing an existing and drilling for a new is tedious, time consuming and arduous. Especially when multiplied out a couple of hundred times. The first is an irrelevant addition to the cleaning up and basing process, the second more than doubles the work.

Suggesting they are synonymous is disingenuous in the extreme and truly bizarre.

[doctorphalanx]

I've cut the flag poles off some ACW ensigns but my attempt to do this with SYW figures didn't go well so I gave up. I certainly wouldn't be prepared to attempt this on hundreds of figures.

You can get adequately long dress pins, i.e. over 30mm. They come in varying gauges so it's probably best to review them in a haberdashery if you can bear the embarrassment.

http://www.threadsmagazine.com/item/3830/a-pin-for-every-purpose/page/all

The NS spears come in at least two lengths. I don't know how the gauges compare. Cutting them down is straightforward, but wear eye protection.

[d_Guy]

I don't! The difference in time and effort is vast. Adding a seperate pike is quick and simple, removing an existing and drilling for a new is tedious, time consuming and arduous. Especially when multiplied out a couple of hundred times. The first is an irrelevant addition to the cleaning up and basing process, the second more than doubles the work.

Suggesting they are synonymous is disingenuous in the extreme and truly bizarre.

I don't think I said anything about the process being equal in time. The initial premise concerned how much time one wishes to spend to achieve a certain result.

If I had actually tried the process of removing and replacing (rather than a quick thought experiment), found it difficult and then said it was not difficult - that would have been disingenuous.

As to bizarre - well you got me there - I have many bizarre ideas  

[Leon]

As I see it the biggest problem with having both an open-hand and cast-on pike variant is the production expense. I don't know enough about the moulding technology but it seems like you would either have to make two separate moulds or a single one with arms separate (so you could go either way - which would be perry cool). In either case probably a whole new set of moulds to make. Perhaps the cost is trivial but I doubt it -  only Pendraken can answer that.

We'd be looking at around £300 I'd think to modify the 4 English and 4 Scots pikemen poses and remould them empty handed.  We'd then need to shift close to a couple of hundred packs to recoup that outlay, so it's probably not viable. 

There are also some indirect problems it would pose as well.  If we make them open-handed it's better for casting but looks odd when the figure isn't gripping the pike.  Closed hands look better and provide a better attachment, but that part of the moulds would wear quicker and the hand-hole would soon fill with flash, meaning more work to drill them out every time.  Which of the types would we put into our army packs on the show stand?  And finally, if we did them for the ECW range, we'd very quickly get requests for the same dual-options in every other pike-y range we've got!

Any chance of this happening if yes what sort of time  scale till ready to buy.

Probably not unfortunately, and it would be very far down the queue if we ever did decide to do it.