Undead vs Elves game

[madpax]

I have played my second warband game against a friend whose it was its first. No photos, sorry, but we had mixed feeling about what we experimented.
He deployed a 'simple' high elves armys, bowmen, spearmen and some cavalry. I tried an undead army led by an uber vampire lord followed by a necromancer, two cavalries, an archer and a warrior squeleton unit, most units able to regenerate.

First of all, sqeletons are very poor and expensive units. Ok, they have fear and 6 morale, but they don't move, have poor protection and attack values. In face all undead units are that way, even special ones.
In the end, the necromancer was easily dispatched (my fault), and the remander squeleton units were unable to do much, one cavalry fighting its elvish counterpart.
The vampire lord was sent into the fray, able to rout some units. But it was, well weird, to see just one unit, supposed to be a commander, fighting againts half the opposing army. Well, maybe it was intended, but it's not what we sought.
We wanted bigger armies, led by a commander that shouldn't melee the enemy unless it was absolutely necessary.
That undead army was exactly the opposite.
Well, maybe it was not that kind of army we should play.

Marc

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

That's an interesting report. Not spotted that as a fault of the Undead. I knew they weren't mobile, but maybe they need spells to up their combat capabilities? Rotting touch is really useful as an extra combat attack.
Just looked at the list, and most of your heavy hitters are additional units. Maybe you need to pin with skeletons to the front, and use others around the flanks? Vultures and ghosts look handy, as do dire wolves and grave grubs.
Save his lordship for a coup dgrass at the end?
Lots of flyers, maybe they need to drop in and confuse your opponent while you pick a target?

[madpax]

Problems are that the general and magicians are very expensive, leaving not many points to buy a special unit. And even those are not very enticing. There aren't one with more than 2d6 of melee.

It's really a one man army...

Marc

[Luddite]

How about something like this?


Undead lord (d6-1) + powerful & regenerate 97pts

Liche (d6+2) + regenerate 128pts

3x Zombies + impetuous 120pts

2x Skeletal riders + skirmish 102pts

2x Dire wolves 52pts

499pts

9 units, vital leaders regenerate, mobile and solid attack force 'hammer' (riders and wolves), solid, mobile pinning force 'anvil' (impetuous zombies).

Its only real weakness is a lack of shooters.  The leaders are the vital core still (and have to be protected) but the wall of mobile fear causers is a serious challenge.

[stenicplus]

Interesting,  Roxy too found they were not as good as first thought. They really need the spells to help them move.

Also get their protection up with spells, they may have 6 morale but that soon goes wuth only 1d6 protection.

Definitely get the top Liche but a lesser general.

[madpax]

Luddite, the problem with your army is that it now lacks punch. The commander is the lesser one, and combined with the liche represents more than 40% of the army. The remainder is not especially fast (the zombies, event with 6 MO, could be routed quickly if moving impetuously).
A good commander could be useful to move undead more quickly, which can't be done here.

Whatever, I'd like to see some more batreps about them, just to give me an idea about them.

Note that the eldritch vampire list, whilst including the same commander choices, allow better and cheaper units, and interesting special units, although none are really powerful, such a strolls, elementals or mamoths.

Marc

[stenicplus]

Marc, another point to consider.... Have you tried the scenarios with the undead army. I suspect that may well put them in better light.

My Dwarven shoots army is lethal in a standup fight... But I would take a kicking in most of the scenarios.

[Luddite]

Luddite, the problem with your army is that it now lacks punch.
Marc

What do you mean?

The d6+2 Liche guarantees 'dominate the lifeless host', which gives you all sorts of options, and with 8MP opens up the possibility of 'onward the shambling horde' (a real boon to the whole army, especially if you go with the swift extra option).

Also, consider that the skirmishing skeletal riders i mentioned can make it through most terrain easily to exploit flanks, and on a direct charge into an enemy flank will be hitting with a devastating 4d6.  This from a unit with probably 50% more hits than its opponent, and suppressing the hits back with 'fear'.

I think i've said before that i think the undead are a difficult army to use, and if used well, a very difficult army to beat.

But as you say, some more batreps or peoples expeiences using the army will help.   

[Luddite]

Another possible build, exploiting the mobility issues by having shooting attacks:

Undead lord d6-1   82pts
Liche d6+2 + regenerate   128pts
Undead ballista + defensive   70pts
Skeletal archers 58pts
Skeletal archers 58pts
Skeletal warriors   34pts
Skeletal warriors   34pts
Skeletal warriors   34pts

498pts, 8 units.  
(Archers could have powerful & slow shot for free)

This one is similar to a Hill Dwarf 'gun line' force.  
The liche would concentrate on 'rotting touch' to give the archers 'powerful', and 'summon the fresh dead' to keep the reinforcements coming.

Or, you could embrace the Vampire Lord and go for something like this.

Vampire lord (d6+2) + flyers & powerful   163pts
Gargoyles   60pts
Gargoyles   60pts
Skeleton warriors   34pts
Skeleton warriors   34pts
Skeleton warriors   34pts
Skeleton warriors   34pts
Zombies   40pts
Zombies   40pts

499pts - 9 units

OK, so you've given up the magic user, but for that you get a solid wall of fear causing core troops (skeletons and zombies). 
This is your anvil, designed to focus and pin your opponent's attention.

The hammer is your flying corps of Vampire Lord and gargoyle wing men!  This trio can pretty much strike where they like, and should be able to pick off and rout one enemy unit each turn (with all 3 in on the melee you have 7 dice basic, plus 3-8CP for boosting).  Fear reduces the attacks back, and powerful reduces the opponent's protection.  Go for high value targets like the commander and magic user early on (or when your opponent's CPs are low!) and you'll cripple their command&control early on.   
As flyers the Vamp/gargoyles can't be attacked except by shooting or if they're already fighting in melee.  This is a serious threat your opponent can't ignore, while he still has to deal with all those zombies and skeletons!

Its high risk though as you've dumped your magic user in favour of flying attacks.

I'm sure you can think of other builds.  Something around grave grubs?  Plan to put lots of water features on the battlefield and use water walking skeleton archers?  A wall of skirmishing skeletal riders?

[stenicplus]

Luddite, your Vampire Lord maths is incorrect.

I'd say drop the fying idea for the hammer, go for hard hitting high protection and morale units. You really need that direct charge bonus.

[Luddite]

Luddite, your Vampire Lord maths is incorrect.

In what way?

[stenicplus]

In what way?

+2 Vampire lord is 148, flying is 20, powerful 5, I make that 173ap, not 163 as per you suggested 2nd undead list.

[Luddite]

Check the errata.     138pts.

[stenicplus]

Doh!

Well no wonder Roxy struggled against me

[Luddite]

Marc, another point to consider.... Have you tried the scenarios with the undead army. I suspect that may well put them in better light.

My Dwarven shoots army is lethal in a standup fight... But I would take a kicking in most of the scenarios.

Good point stenicplus.

A 'stand up fight' army is fine, but when scenario play is introduced, the challenges require a different build and different tactics for each army.   

The Undead army is certainly different from most other armies, and while focussed around its leaders perhaps more than other forces, still presents lots of options and different styles of play.