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Author Topic: [RULES] Pursuit and Routing  (Read 2843 times)
fred.
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« on: 02 April 2015, 03:54:50 PM »

Tried out a little test game this afternoon just 2 units of Minotaurs vs a 3 Humans.

the minotaurs are very tough, often getting 5 dice in melee, so being able to drive the enemy back, and then being able to charge in again, to get charge and fierce bonus Attacks. And with Fear enemy counter attacks are weaker.

I missed the Protection modifiers for distance from friends and for closeness to the table edge - these are likely to have effected both sides though. I like the concept of these it gives you a reason to keep your forces together, and towards the centre of the battlefield.

The turn sequence table on page 17 is very useful, as in the descriptions of various rules the sequence isn't described.

A couple of questions around routing came up.

Is there any point in shooting at a Routing unit?
If not then it definitely helps to have some quick moving units to mop up enemy routers.

One unit of Minotaurs was pinned between bowmen and men at arms. It dropped to 0 morale, so routed. As it has Move 2, is it correct that it can slide 1BW to the side, then move forward 1BW so it is no longer in contact? This meant that Men at Arms couldn't purse, as they had to use 1BW just to turn around, and the archers were too far away. On the next turn the human troops fluffed all their motivation rolls ( even with some CP thrown in) and just watched the running minotaurs.

Pursuit move. Can this just be used as a normal move? It says that if that it can be used as a normal charge move, if no unit from the initial combat is in range, and a normal charge can turn into a basic move if there is no target of the charge.

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fred.
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« Reply #1 on: 02 April 2015, 03:59:26 PM »

Against the Minotaurs the Knights felt quite weak (and they are 11pts cheaper) giving the Knights the Fierce and Powerful upgrades (which are available on the list) is probably a good idea to make your Knights feel more like charging heroes!

It's good to have these options, it's the special rules that seem to differentiate the units a lot
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Chieftain
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« Reply #2 on: 02 April 2015, 04:34:16 PM »

the minotaurs are very tough, often getting 5 dice in melee, so being able to drive the enemy back, and then being able to charge in again, to get charge and fierce bonus Attacks. And with Fear enemy counter attacks are weaker.

Yes they are.  However, if this impetus is stopped, they're advantages diminish.
Consider the Resolute special ability.
And of course, if the minotuars suffer 2 hits, they fall back and don't pursue.

Quote
Is there any point in shooting at a Routing unit?

No.

Quote
If not then it definitely helps to have some quick moving units to mop up enemy routers.

Yes.   Smiley

Quote
One unit of Minotaurs was pinned between bowmen and men at arms. It dropped to 0 morale, so routed. As it has Move 2, is it correct that it can slide 1BW to the side, then move forward 1BW so it is no longer in contact? This meant that Men at Arms couldn't purse, as they had to use 1BW just to turn around, and the archers were too far away. On the next turn the human troops fluffed all their motivation rolls ( even with some CP thrown in) and just watched the running minotaurs.

Um.

It's difficult to judge what you mean here without pictures.

At the initial point of rout the unit first turns, wheels, or pivots the minimum distance necessary to line up facing its own table edge.  This extra alignment move does not count towards the rout distance moved.  

If a unit is unable to complete this initial alignment move, it moves (relocates) the minimum distance necessary to allow it to do so and then routs from that point.  

This doesn't mean it gets to break contact, and since this is a minimum move, its unlikely that could happen (but i suppose it could?)

Subsequent to that, it's very possible that a fast moving routed unit can outpace slower pursuers, but of course a faster routing unit will have less chance to rally.  Having fast units and flyers to run down routing enemy is a good tactic to consider.

Remember as well that you cannot rally a unit if it is within 1BW of any enemy unit.

Quote
Pursuit move. Can this just be used as a normal move?

No.

Quote
It says that if that it can be used as a normal charge move, if no unit from the initial combat is in range, and a normal charge can turn into a basic move if there is no target of the charge.

A pursuit move is a melee charge move.  All melee charge rules and effects apply, except the pursuing unit must intend to contact the closest enemy unit that fell back or routed from it this turn.  

If no such units are available (e.g. routed enemy units are destroyed or out of range), the pursuit move can be made as a normal melee charge move, in that it can intend to contact other enemy units.  You cannot then convert that to a basic move or a restricted move.  
« Last Edit: 02 April 2015, 04:36:37 PM by Chieftain » Logged

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fred.
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« Reply #3 on: 02 April 2015, 08:12:54 PM »

Thanks for the answers.

Yes the Minotaurs need to keep causing hits to keep up their high Attacks. But on one turn they were charged in the rear by Men at Arms, who would have had 4 attacks, but were down to 3 due to fear, and rolled badly, the Minotaurs still had 3 attacks and rolled, well forcing the MAA back, and were able to then pivot and follow up. Though writing this now, I realise that wouldn't have been a direct charge.

Yes, Resolute will spoil a charging attacker's day!

The routing scenario above was like this
B are the bowmen,
M the Minatours facing the bowmen, with their rear to their own table edge.
A the men at Arms facing the Minotaurs
Code:
BBBB
MMMM
AAAA
The Minatours were routed
I assumed they could about turn on the spot, to face their own table edge (and the Men At Arms)
Then as they have 2 move, could slide to the side
Code:
BBBB
....MMMM
AAAA
Then used their second move to run towards their baseline, breaking contact.

We will have to get used to the pursuit move only being a charge back into melee - we are used to rules that let you do stuff after winning (WM and HC).
« Last Edit: 02 April 2015, 08:15:05 PM by fred 12df » Logged

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Chieftain
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« Reply #4 on: 02 April 2015, 08:52:34 PM »

Ah, i see.

The minotaur's 'relocation' (sideways slide) was incorrect. 

The initial move at the point of rout is to simply line up facing the base edge.  So this alignment move would be to face its own table edge.

It would then begin its move from there.  So what happens?

Quote
A routing unit must move as far as possible up to its maximum distance.

As a rout move a unit must move by the most direct route possible towards its own base table edge. 

A routing unit can deviate only to avoid impassable terrain, and only by the minimum necessary to do so.

A routing unit is destroyed (and removed) immediately that any of the following apply;
-  At the end of its initial rout move it is unable to break contact from all enemy units

So, the Minotaurs cannot deviate around the enemy Men-at-Arms after they turn to face their own base edge, cannot end their move out of contact with the enemy, and are therefore destroyed.



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fred.
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« Reply #5 on: 02 April 2015, 09:27:29 PM »

Ok. So encirclement is deadly - which is no bad thing.

I wasn't sure if what I did was just due to the longer move, but it was because I had misread the rout rules.
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Lord Speedy of Leighton
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« Reply #6 on: 02 April 2015, 09:29:35 PM »

Yoiks that's painful !

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fred.
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« Reply #7 on: 19 April 2015, 01:13:41 PM »

Another routing question

1) In the Attack the camp scenario where are the table edges for routing? If its back to the camp - then the defenders are going to have it hard, as they don't have much distance to put into.

2) if the attackers are at an angle to the defender's table edge, so that when the router pivots to face his table edge, the attacking unit is still between him and his table edge, is the routing unit destroyed because he can't interpenetrate the attacker?
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fred.
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« Reply #8 on: 19 April 2015, 05:54:42 PM »

Two more questions.

3) when you spend CP points how exactly do you have to spend them.
For example say you need to move 2BW to contact an enemy. You have 2d6 motivation, and move 1.  You roll the dice, and only get one success.
You can now choose to spend CP points. Can you spend 1 CP roll, the dice, and if it fails choose to spend another. Or do you have to choose the total  number of CP to spend before you roll the extra dice.
It's the immediately before or after you roll the dice part of the rule that is confusing me

I also need to remember the range of the commander, and the penalty to motivation for being away from friends.

4) Shooting at units engaged in melee - if a unit starts the turn unengaged, but is then charged. It is a valid shooting target. But if one of your units is in the shooting lane, then the shot is blocked - does this still count if it is one that has charged in? So to shoot at an enemy in melee you have to consider where your chargers might end up.
We are finding it is quite hard to position shooters
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Chieftain
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« Reply #9 on: 19 April 2015, 06:52:16 PM »

Hi fred,

1) In the Attack the camp scenario where are the table edges for routing? If its back to the camp - then the defenders are going to have it hard, as they don't have much distance to put into.

The wording for this was missed off.  It applies, for clarity, to the Ambush, Attack the camp, and Through the fog scenarios.

Under Army Deployment, add; 'The player that deploys his army first, chooses a long table edge as his table edge.  The opposing player takes the opposite table edge.  Units from each army rout towards this table edge.'

I'll add this to the errata.

Quote
2) if the attackers are at an angle to the defender's table edge, so that when the router pivots to face his table edge, the attacking unit is still between him and his table edge, is the routing unit destroyed because he can't interpenetrate the attacker?

Yes.

Quote
3) when you spend CP points how exactly do you have to spend them.
For example say you need to move 2BW to contact an enemy. You have 2d6 motivation, and move 1.  You roll the dice, and only get one success.
You can now choose to spend CP points. Can you spend 1 CP roll, the dice, and if it fails choose to spend another. Or do you have to choose the total  number of CP to spend before you roll the extra dice.

Either way is fine and its up to you as player to decide how you want to add the dice in.  You can add multiple dice before or after, or 'feed them in' afterwards one at a time.

Quote
It's the immediately before or after you roll the dice part of the rule that is confusing me

The relevant text is:

A commander unit can spend command points on itself or on any friendly unit within 4BW.  Command points can be spent by either side at any time during each relevant phase to modify activities and outcomes as required.  They can be spent immediately before or after dice rolls are made, and can be spent in any way the player chooses. 

This simply means you must spend the CP when you're making the dice roll, so you can't move on to another unit, and then come back to add more CP in to a previous unit. 

Quote
I also need to remember the range of the commander, and the penalty to motivation for being away from friends.

It's easy to forget these and they're really important!   Wink  These conditional modifiers have a significant impact on your strategies.

Quote
4) Shooting at units engaged in melee - if a unit starts the turn unengaged, but is then charged. It is a valid shooting target. But if one of your units is in the shooting lane, then the shot is blocked - does this still count if it is one that has charged in?

A friendly unit blocks the shot it if it is in the shooting lane and is closer than the target unit.  This still counts if the shooting unit is the one that charged.

Quote
So to shoot at an enemy in melee you have to consider where your chargers might end up.

Yes.
In fact there are a variety of things you'll want to consider with regard to the final position of your charging units.  If you read the contact rules carefully, you'll see there's a lot of flexibility in how you position your units during melee charge contact.

Quote
We are finding it is quite hard to position shooters

Yes.   Smiley  This is intentional.  You need to keep those shooting lanes open and free from blocking conditions.  The defender each turn has an advantage with this.

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fred.
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« Reply #10 on: 19 April 2015, 08:29:22 PM »

Thanks for the detailed answers.

We went with a table edge - it made sense to play that way for routing. On the attack the camp scenario it does make it much easier to block enemies retreats as you can start off from any direction.

We have been feeding the CP in one at a time - its a bit like gambling, (just 1 more spin!) to get that crucial extra success on movement.  The point about having to spend them before you move is important - its quite tempting to want to come back and play them on a unit after it has moved.

With shooting the Parting Shot special ability now looks very useful, the shooting arc is quite narrow so being able to reposition slightly will be very helpful.
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