Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => Painting & Modelling => Topic started by: sixsideddice on 20 May 2010, 11:42:40 AM

Title: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: sixsideddice on 20 May 2010, 11:42:40 AM
Hi,

May I ask for a bit of advice please?

I am still a bit shaky painting these small fellows, but seeing all the great things you do with them inspires me endlessly. I`ll never be able to match anything like the amazing effects you all seem to be able to achieve, but I can but try.

Undercoating.... I always spray mine white, but I notice most the tips I see seem to go for black, is this because it helps shadowing, or is it acceptable to stick with my white - which helps my poor old eyes no end?

Cheers in advance,

Steve.
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: lentulus on 20 May 2010, 12:59:12 PM
I prime black because if I find some nook or cranny hard to get to it really does not matter, it just kind of disappears as a shadow.

I also dry brush with gray before I start serious painting to help clarify the detail.

"or is it acceptable to stick with my white"

Nope, sorry, the Painting branch of the Though Police will be by to pick up you figures  ;D
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: goat major on 20 May 2010, 01:14:12 PM
Steve - there's no right or wrong answer and its down to personal taste.

Black offers some advantages in that (as Lentulus says) it fills in the gaps/crannies much better than white, it gives a nice definition between your colours. You can also use it for deep shade - though i prefer not to. The main disadvantage is that your colours will look less bright and in a smaller scale you probably want brighter. For the same reason you often need more than one coat to get proper colour coverage. It is also a bit more difficult to spot detail with black i find.

I switched from white to black a few years ago and generally wouldnt go back but there are probably as many people out there who would say the opposite.!

I would do some test figures and see how you get on.
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: Captain Verbeek on 20 May 2010, 01:17:55 PM
I typically use a black undercoat as this allows you to leave the black inbetween your block colors and lets the fig "pop" per the Foundary, Kevin Dallimore Method.  However I have also base-coated black and immediately dry-brushed the entire model in a dark brown, this allows you to pick out the detail a bit, plus it sets up a nice base for the flesh, leather and wood which make up the majority of my figures.  For my Sudan stuff I have started base coating with a dark brown, I guess a natural evolution for me, it lets me skip a step with the brown dry-brush and I still leave it at the edges were colors are seperated and it works almost as well as black and everyone in the desert is a bit dusty anyway.  My 10mm painting tutorial shows the black/brown dry-brush technique

http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=86.0 (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=86.0)

link about half-way down this thread.

and a look at the brown undercoat up-close in this link.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Tz47CVXu2cc/S3odL4la80I/AAAAAAAAArQ/5MuzHUt0vHA/s1600-h/Brits+up-close.jpg (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Tz47CVXu2cc/S3odL4la80I/AAAAAAAAArQ/5MuzHUt0vHA/s1600-h/Brits+up-close.jpg)

Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: sixsideddice on 20 May 2010, 02:08:43 PM
Nope, sorry, the Painting branch of the Though Police will be by to pick up you figures   

HAHA, I`ll have to set up a system of stooges to bang on the wall and warn me when the Police come to raid my collection of undercoated metals :)

Seriously, thanks guys.

I am aware that (on this small scale) a black might make the finished results look a wee bit dark, especially after inking; but I`m guessing a great many of the incredible photos of 10mm miniatures I`m seeing online are testimony to the fact this needn`t be a problem... if you have the skill to make the figures shine out, so to speak. But I do doubt my skills a bit I`m afraid, and probably with good reason  :-\

However, I have been persuaded to chance black for a while simply because of the ability it will give me to mask the hard to get at bits, and may aid my inability to focus on creating the detail through a steady and confident hand and eye.

I`ll let you know how I get on, don`t laugh  :-[

Steve
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: Captain Verbeek on 20 May 2010, 02:16:34 PM
don't worry, I have seen excellent results in 10mm with a black base coat and simply blocking in the main colors, shirts, pants flesh with no highlights, dry-brushing or shading just a nice base and mass.  If you have a 100 small Romans painted in block fashion it still looks amazing.
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: sixsideddice on 20 May 2010, 03:02:40 PM
Thanks for the vote of confidence Captain Verbeek, I will endeavour to make them worthy of the table  :)

Yes, the mess effect can look stunning. However, I`m going for individual bases (round 1 cent coins) because I want that ECW & Monmouth Rebellion `individualisic` look you normally only associate with 28mm... and bigger... miniatures.

Lately, I`m attempting more and more to use my 10mm metal buddies just like I would their 28mm brothers and sisters; instead of the enmasse feel I often seem to encounter with this scale.

Actually, it was the link to the following thread which inspired me the most.

http://javieratwar.blogspot.com/2010/03/mordheim-using-whaa.html
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: MooseDontBounce on 20 May 2010, 05:50:03 PM
I've always like Tamyia Panzer Gray for my undercoat.  A little softer then black.
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: Sandinista on 20 May 2010, 06:40:52 PM
I tend to undercoat with whichever colour will predominate on finished figure
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: Zbigniew on 20 May 2010, 09:47:02 PM
I have found undercoating black most suitable for my style of painting. As someone said earlier do not make highlights in this scale. This only produce kind of a mess.
And I always use brighter shade of colour then adviced in uniform guides. For example I paint British redcoats almost orange shade of red. Ofcourse these are my findings after many failures and spending money on unnecessary amount of paints like 6 various shades of red  :)
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: clibinarium on 20 May 2010, 11:44:02 PM
If you go with a black undercoat, don't be afraid to go with bold colours to offset the darkening effect of the black. I tend to just use the paint thicker than I would with larger figures, my SYW Austrians were done in white with only one coat.
When I get time I am going to experiment with using grey undercoat for AWI french, washed with army painter to get black in the recesses. My first test with homemade wash was a bit too dirty looikng for my satisfaction; anyone else tried thi?

Highlights can work in 10mm, but they have to contrast more than those on bigger figures, and they have to be limited to the larger areas (say the coat or trousers only) and possibily the flesh to give definition to the face
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: nikharwood on 21 May 2010, 12:06:19 AM
I'd agree - there's a need to be bold with 10mm...

I have to mention that Army Painter's 'dips' are no more than woodstain...you can save yourself a whole bunch of money by going to B&Q or Wilkinson's & getting a tin of their own-brand satin/matt woodstain...it'll cost you roughly 25% of what AP will cost you...no, really...

I always do highlights in 10mm - I think they work, even at the subtle end of the spectrum [eg camo schemes etc] - but I do tend to start a couple of tones lighter.
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: Captain Verbeek on 21 May 2010, 12:14:51 AM
I do not like dips on white, I would paint the dip into the recesses before I would dip the figs.  Again dark brown works pretty well as a base coat when painting white.  but Cil is a great painter so I would take his advice.
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: nikharwood on 21 May 2010, 12:39:41 AM
Too right  8)

I've not used 'dips' at all...just know that you can get 'em cheaper if that's what you want to do  ;)
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: clibinarium on 21 May 2010, 01:07:49 AM
The effect I am thinking of is something like what's seen in this pic;

(http://www.blackhat.co.uk/images/SS1.jpg)

(Pic is from Black Hat's shader page, by the way. Credit where credit's due)

The intent was to show the shader easily against the white undercoated figure, but it stuck me that it might work for French Infantry; the 1779 regulation uniform is very white. With this doing the shade, just hightlight white and paint in the colured bits; the black recesses of the shader giving the separation that the solid black undercoat usually would. I agreed painting on rather than dipping would be better.
The key would be getting the shader not to dirty the raise areas and be pretty slid in the recesses, combing the good points of black and white undercoats. The rightmost is too heavy (dirtying the raised parts) the leftmost a bit too weak. The middle one is almost right, but the worng colour (so not quite Goldilocks).
Maybe I'm asking too much of the idea?
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: FierceKitty on 21 May 2010, 06:28:46 AM
The Gemahlpo (Teutophiles can work it out) will be breaking my door down too. Though I used to use black undercoats when I was a 15mm man, I prefer white in 10mm. I find it's easier to get a bright, clear, even coat of pigment over it. This may well have something to do with my ageing eyes, and I don't pretend to paint as well as some can.
   What the hell, Tokugawa Ieyasu was wounded in action at 73, wasn't he?
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: goat major on 21 May 2010, 08:04:26 AM
I always do highlights and I do think it works, but as Clib said you do need to get a strong contrast. On 28mm figures i would use 3+ colours but on 10mm i tend to use 2 - a shade colour and a highlight colour (skipping the mid-tone). I only tend to use washes on flesh and fur - but still supplement with a highlight. Of course this does take time (which partly removes one of the advantages of 10mm!)
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: goat major on 21 May 2010, 08:06:36 AM
i like this thought. There's a similar technique on the Citadel painting book - i think they call it a guide wash. Its got to be worth an experiment i think.
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: sixsideddice on 21 May 2010, 08:07:23 AM
hehe, maybe he`ll rise from Nikkō Tōshō-gū and come haunt us  :)

Oh my, all these great ideas, and I just don`t know what to do.

Basically, I used to paint a lot in 25/28mm. So much so, the very thought of how many minis I`ve painted over the years scares the heck out of me now (over 25000 I`m guessing); and then I got lazy, and started painting for the table - just passable standard. But since taking up 10mm and seeing just what CAN be done with these marvellous little guys, I`ve become determined not to let the team down if I can help it... so want to make a decent attempt to get this right lol.

My 10mm fantasy figures are passable, perhaps, in a bad light after a few drinks. But I`m painting 10mm English Civil War(s), Monmouth Rebellion and Jacobite wars from scratch, so have an opportunity to do good (there`s always something really nice about starting from the beginning with a new era. Clean metal, and good intensions â€" gamers`bliss).

Hmmmm, well I went out and bought a can of matt black undercoat spray yesterday, so will try in out on the London Argyll Militia first and see how that works out for me; if it’s a disaster, I`ll slink back to white undercoating and take it from there.

I`ll post the photo results when the first Foot are ready for action.


Cheers guys

Steve
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: FierceKitty on 21 May 2010, 02:39:12 PM
I wish someone would produce tartan paint for ECW highlanders!
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: goat major on 21 May 2010, 02:57:42 PM
Quote from: FierceKitty on 21 May 2010, 02:39:12 PM
I wish someone would produce tartan paint for ECW highlanders!

It only tends to come in large tins - for 10mm you need to decant it into a smaller container first and then it works fine.
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: Grenadier on 21 May 2010, 11:09:07 PM
 OK, I'll put in my two cents to muddy the topic.  I use white or light gray Tamiya spray as it is probably the best primer in spray bomb form.  It covers extremely well and doesn't fill in details.  After drying I apply my first black-gray wash.  This not only provides much needed pre-shading but pops out the details thus allowing my 40+ year old eyes to see what to paint! Color blocking follows in order of flesh, clothing, cuffs, lapels and turnbacks, equipment, hair.  This step is often back and forth as my clumsy fingers paint what they shouldn't.  After drying, a second wash of black-gray for clothing and equipment and a wash of russet for skin. Light highlights as usual and then a spray bomb job of matt acrylic art spray to seal and protect from greasy gamer fingers!

Brian
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: Jubilation T Cornpone on 23 May 2010, 07:15:10 AM
Always a black undercoat with a highlight of GW Khemri Brown. Works for me. Everyone has a different way of doing things. Experiment and then go with what works for you.
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: sixsideddice on 24 May 2010, 12:25:47 PM
Just to update,

My 10mm ECW  parcel arrived in the post today, so now I`m well and truly in business and can begin the long process of working to get them to the table in all their glory.

They really are exquisitely detailed and I`m utterly impressed. Makes working on them so much easier when they look so stunning  to begin with... and absolutely no flash or uneven bases to have to deal with - incredible.

I will stick, I think, with Foundry Publication’s 1644 rules (just need to convert inches to centimetres), as they have such a great skirmish feel to them, and will allow me to base the pieces individually (on 1 cent coins); which I always think brings a personal `hands on` appeal to the table... something which is sometimes missing in this scale, I feel.

Thanks guys for all your advice about undercoating, it’s all sunk in; now I just have to put it into practise...  wish me luck :-)

Steve
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: Wkeyser on 25 May 2010, 09:19:20 AM
I am also a whity :)  I prime white for a couple of reasons the first is that I use predominantly Windsor and Newton Acrylics. This allows me to thin them to varying degrees which affects the way the fig looks. This allows me in one coat of paint to shade and highlight at the same time. This does mean that I often have to go back and reprime. For example once the coats are done I have to go back and reprime white the belts, packs etc. The other benefit of the Windsor and Newton allows you have a matt look (by thinning a lot) to a semi gloss look (very little thinning of the paint).

Also what I see with most black primed figs is a darkening of the colors and lots of black lines, something you just don’t see in reality. I know that we are painting to accentuate details but I just don’t like the look of heavy black lines and worse are the black eyes you see often when figs have been primed with black.

William

The coat on these French are done in one coat no shading or highlighting, by using white primer and a thinned acrlyc paint.

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4029/4631358143_f1a22ebc85_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: sixsideddice on 25 May 2010, 05:39:03 PM
Really really nice Wkeyser , highly impressive.

Wow, you use Windsor and Newton; thats so cool, I really like their Inks.

Here are a few of my Ink efforts  :)

http://tabletoptitans.com/tutorials/0001.php

http://tabletoptitans.com/reviews/0001.php


Steve
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: Last Hussar on 31 May 2010, 11:49:18 AM
I go black - I find if I use white or grey if I mis a bit it really shows up. (and its always after I base and the spot is visible but inaccessible!).  I find GW Foundation paints are excellent for coverage, even over black - the Mechanite red only needs ONE coat, the only red I know that does this.

I tend to block paint, because I don't have the skill for the fiddly bits.  There is also what I call my '3 foot factor' (aka table distance)

I have some 6mm that I bought painted, and on some of the French foriegn regiments  they have all the lace and stuff- trouble is from 4 feet away they look like a Jackson Pollock - just a mess of colour.   I must admit I don't do buttons etc - often invisible from the other side of the table.

Remember in 10mm, 1mm on the figure is 6 inches (make your own joke about what you tell your missus!).  I sometimes do the barrels of muskets, but bear in mind what you have just given them is equivalent to the gun on a Sherman!

Confession time:
I often undercoat CSA grey, then only paint anthing that isn't CS uniform
Title: Re: Advice on 10mm Undercoating
Post by: sixsideddice on 01 June 2010, 06:11:36 PM
Here are my personal findings:

As a complete newcomer pretty much to this scale, I have been listening closely to the better advice of others, and experimenting with both black and white undercoating for my Pendraken Miniatures.

I have found that for the Fantasy range, the black undercoating makes for great line definition (Skeletons, Dungeon Monsters, etc) and separates the colours in such a way as to augment the natural detail of the minis and makes them stand out that much more, and with minimal work needed by me to create a nice effect.

However, with my Jacobites, Marlborough Brits, and most importantly, my English Civil War armies; a white undercoating allows me not only to see what I`m painting, but really helps makes the finished colours that much brighter, which (at this small scale) is a great bonus... and makes the extra detail that much more special, and very worthwhile my spending the extra time on each piece.

Steve :-)